Question to all SC players

[veki]

Hello to all SC players!

Well, because manual is very superficial and unfinished (to my opinion) I have one question:

Does anyone have list of all moves and actions which have influence to politics?

For instance: If I declare war to Sweden for how many percent rise USSR entry to war?

Thanks in advance.

Veki

[pzgndr]

I suspect Hubert is the only one with a definitive list. If SC was a boardgame, we'd have everything clearly defined in the game rules and designer notes. After the TCP/IP patch gets finished, I would hope he turns his attention to upgrading the user manual to address all the details in the game, particularly politics and research. As we continue discussing what could be tweaked and how, it would be nice to have all the information rather than guessing and making suggestions that may not be practical.

[Hubert Cater]

Good points, actually some of the information was left out purposely to allow for that uncertainty feel when playing the *political* game. I figured it was at least a good idea to give the basics, but if it were all spelled out then game play might become too formulaic and not re-create some of the tension of the unknown effects and randomness. But of course if there is enough of a demand for all the details I will reconsider.

Hubert

[Morten Kay]

Ok i might not demand it, but i´ll certainly request it To have those "unknown" political rules, create unbalancing situations if one knows them and his opponent dosn´t.

/Morten Kay

[Jeff Heidman]

Agreed. That lack of knowledge is nice, but when it coems to data that is accessible, but hard to get, you end up with uneven distribution of knowledge.

I could run a dozen tests to figure it out, and I am sure someone will. So better to just post the correct stuff right from the start.

The best way to enforce uncertainty is to make the results uncertain.

Jeff

[arby]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

I could run a dozen tests to figure it out, and I am sure someone will. So better to just post the correct stuff right from the start.

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer. I played a number of games against the AI (and, of course, it would work the same for PBEM), where the effect of an invasion of Yugoslavia, always under the same circumstances (same time of year, same other countries having been conquered) could produce substantially different effects on Russia's war readiness. Starting at about 41, I saw it go to anywhere from 49 to 62. In short, I think that the political stuff has a random aspect to it. The things I know for sure are:

1. An invasion of Canada by the Germans will immediately bring the US into the war.

2. Not keeping sufficient troops on the Eastern Front (2 in 1940, at least 3 in 1941) will bring Russia into the war.

3. Invading Spain as the Germans means the Minor Axis, with the exception of Finland, will not enter the war.

4. Any kind of aggressive move by the Allies, especially toward neutrals, in the early part of the war will substantially decrease American war readiness. In one game, I got bored and decided to invade Iraq and Italy with the French. By the time France fell, American war readiness, which would normally be at 20%+, was at minus 7%.

Most of it is pretty logical. I've had Axis players surprised that Russia DOW'ed them, and then found out that they hadn't kept any units on the Eastern Front. What did they figure, Joe Stalin was Mother Theresa in drag?

[P z B]

The fact that Bulgaria, Hungary & Rumania doesn't join the Axis if you invade Spain is incredible harsh! If each country would have a 30% chance of not joining the Axis, then it would have been very interesting to keep on invading Spain...now it's not...at all :}

I also think it should be a small possibility for that Spain joined the Axis cause. Maybe 10%...

The more possible twitches the better!

[gorski]

I vote for the manual to contain everything. I am not looking for 'immersion' in a strategic wargame. I want to know exactly what happens and when re politics in SC.

Gorski

P.S. Still love the game, can't wait for tcp/ip

[iolo]

With respect to Spain joining the Axis, they have for me once so far, about halfway through Sea Lion.

[pzgndr]

I want to know exactly what happens and when re politics in SC.

That's not what you mean, is it?

The game will continue to generate random political events based on chance and that's fine. I think we all just want to know what those chances are and what affects them. If we were playing a board game, it would be perfectly clear and we could then make some informed strategic decisions. We know the geographic and economic benefits of conquering country X, but unsure of what the political risks actually are. We'll never know the outcomes until they occur, but we should know what our chances are.

[arby]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

The game will continue to generate random political events based on chance and that's fine. I think we all just want to know what those chances are and what affects them. If we were playing a board game, it would be perfectly clear and we could then make some informed strategic decisions. We know the geographic and economic benefits of conquering country X, but unsure of what the political risks actually are. We'll never know the outcomes until they occur, but we should know what our chances are.

But you already do, don't you? It doesn't take a brainiac to figure out that if you leave the Eastern front unguarded, Russia's going to come in early. Given Russia's historical ties to Yugoslavia, you have to figure that invading that country is going to tee off the Russians. You should know that the Balkan countries are not going to be in any hurry to join you if you're screwing around over in Spain while the Soviet bear is getting antsy. Americans are going to be upset with the side that invades neutral countries; that's the way it worked historically.

I think the political rules are one of the finest aspects of this game; they work intuitively, but with some degree of randomness that might be expected in real-life politics and diplomacy. Let's face it, if you're Adolf Hitler deciding whether to invade Sweden, and some aide walks in and says, "If you do, it will make it 17.6% more likely that America will intervene prior to December of 1941," you'd drop the guy out the window. Nobody can predict that stuff with that degree of precision, and neither should you.

[pzgndr]

I think the political rules are one of the finest aspects of this game; they work intuitively, but with some degree of randomness that might be expected in real-life politics and diplomacy.

On this we agree. The randomness makes each game interesting and unique. :cool:

Nobody can predict that stuff with that degree of precision, and neither should you.

Well, Hubert did and he's not exactly nobody. And this forum provides an opportunity for folks like you and I to provide feedback and make suggestions. And knowing the facts is always better than guessing.

"Discovery Learning" is popular these days with our educational elite, but I'm a bit old-fashioned and prefer having all of the rules in hand for whatever game I'm playing. I'm prepared to be surprised by random events and FOW, but not by vague rules I don't fully understand. My $0.02 worth.

[veki]

With all do respect to guys who wants surprises in politics I will say to you this:

Why Advanced Third Reich game (which is a great game there is no doubt) has special appendix for politics? What I like specially in A3R is a diplomatic modification to dice roll results. For instance: If I declare war to Yugoslavia you must add 2 to dice roll result to increase USSR war readiness or if I have 10 units in eastern front you must decrease 2 to dice roll result to reduce USSR war readiness. I know that in A3R is a whole different concept for diplomacy but if you have something similar like this modification in SC that what I want to know. I don’t want to know exactly what will happen when I do something (this will be really stupid).

Let's face it, if you're Adolf Hitler deciding whether to invade Sweden, and some aide walks in and says, "If you do, it will make it 17.6% more likely that America will intervene prior to December of 1941," you'd drop the guy out the window. Nobody can predict that stuff with that degree of precision, and neither should you.

This is true but Adolf Hitler knew if he attacks Sweden that will be some effects on USA war readiness. He didn’t know exactly in what percentage. For all who didn’t knows diplomatic activity was intensive and important during the World War II.

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by veki:

This is true but Adolf Hitler knew if he attacks Sweden that will be some effects on USA war readiness. He didn’t know exactly in what percentage. For all who didn’t knows diplomatic activity was intensive and important during the World War II.

He didn't need to attack Sweden since he was

getting a lot of the MPPs from that mine in the

north. Oops mixing fact and fiction again... :eek:

John DiFool