i can't believe I never thought of suggesting this!

[Jon Patrick]

Herbert.

I apologize in advance! I'm one ot just enjoy the game, and not write in with constant suggestions....

But I thought of something today. Not often, but sometimes, I actually take the USA and canada before the conquest of russia (or 'great' britian) is completed.

Now, I can empty cananda and the US of all troops and move them to a more, um, *useful* location on the map.

My suggestion is this, the USA should, no *must*, have partisian activity! Seriously, to think that the US could be conquered (at least 1/2 of it!) and that NO occupying force need be left behind is absurd!. The US would take a large force to keep the peace, at least 1 corps in each city and on the mines.

What does everyone think?

Jon

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

sounds good. God bless america!

[USGrant]

Ditto for the Russians. This has been discussed long ago, along with suggestions for a chance of partisans for any surrendered country. Hubert has made no movement in this direction, yet.

[JerseyJohn]

There's an earlier posting a few pages back on North America with a lot of related ideas in it.

American and Canadian partisans sounds good to me.

To be honest I don't think it should be possibe for the Axis to make trans-Atlantic invasions, but since it is, I guess partisans are the best solution.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Except these partisans should be at 10 strength, not 5, as they had a strong industrial backing, inlike that of the Yugo and Soviet partizans.

[Flash Gordon]

I just find it weird that that Ottawa is on the east coast of Canada in the game. WTF?!?!

It's also odd that both Canada and the USA just surrender when their capitols are taken. I'd imagine the governments of both countries would be shifted westward (much like how things work with England and the USSR).

One can argue about the "authenticity" of cross-Atlantic invasions but one thing is certain...they sure are fun...but weird in the game.

My hope is that SC2 will have a full world map and that the Japanese can be brought into the Axis fold in the game. A full world map would also allow for some interesting campaigns - like, for instance, a post-WWII war between Germany/Italy against Japan with the USA and Canada split into German and Japanese zones of occupation.

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by USGrant:

Ditto for the Russians.

Dont want to repeat this subject over and over again, but to speak for my point of view, i never understood why the Germans wouldnt have any problems with partisans/resistance after USSR surrendered. The bolshevists surely would have continued fighting the Germans with guerilla tactics. In fact, it seemed more easy to conquer the russian soil than to hold it under control without occupation forces.

[Panzer39]

How about this for a new USA suggestion? When the Axis takes over the US, a message pops up saying the USA has sued for peace. Following that all Axis forces are "magically" transported to the coast of France (Like when Vichy is created) and America goes back to being neutral and stays that way for the west of the war. Germany gets no plunder but no longer has to worry about USA influence. I think this would be a much more realistic approach given the fact that the Axis could in no way hope to garrison the USA while still conducting a war in Europe. What do yall think?

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Panzer39:

...and America goes back to being neutral and stays that way for the west of the war. Germany gets no plunder but no longer has to worry about USA influence. I think this would be a much more realistic approach given the fact that the Axis could in no way hope to garrison the USA while still conducting a war in Europe. What do yall think?

I heavily agree with Panzer39 but a USA beeing neutral again could be attacked once more like every nation with status neutral?! The ideal solution would be a map covering the rest of the US (as well as USSR) so the gouvernment could move finally to Los Angeles or something (And the soviet would evacuate to Nishnewartowsk or Jakutsk in Sibiria right)

[ November 03, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ]

[Rouge]

What about romainias anti nazi partisans who fought their own countrymen thought the duration of the war.

As for the russians most partisans were soldiers who were straglers and bought together in this photo the red army uniforms are visible.

my two cents anyways

[JerseyJohn]

Rouge -- Your two cents are worth a nickel.

Great photo and great point.

Once invaded I don't think the U.S. would have sued for peace unless it were in the ruins of Berlin. Hawaii is much further away than Boston and the whole country went instantly ape when it was attacked, and remained that way for years, through a dozen un-American bloodbaths in both theatres.

Eventually the ferver started tappering off; by '45 there was very little enthusiasm for an actual invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, especially among veterans of the European war who definitely felt they'd already done enough!

The U.S. anticipated so many casualties in the Japan invasion it ordered a ton of purple heart medals, so many, in fact, that it hasn't put in another order since.

Additionally, regardless of how ill-prepared the U.S. was to defend it's shores, I think Germany was even less prepared to invade them. Their lifeline would have been too long and the invasion force far too small.

-- --

"There are some parts of New York you better not try invading."

Bogart (as Rick) in "Casablanca."

[Flash Gordon]

The tragic thing about those Red Army stragglers that formed up partisan groups was that when they managed to break out and reach their own lines, they were tossed into jails (and worse) because of Stalin's paranoia.

Can you just imagine what those guys went through? Being over-run by the Wehrmacht, fighting their way back to their own lines...and then instead of having medals pinned on their chests, being treated like traitors?

[Rouge]

Stailins Purge gordan- pity as those men would be badly needed veterens by the time they reached home.

[Panzer39]

I am not saying that the US would have sued for peace in real life. They most likely would fight on. However I feel that them sueing for peace and going back to neutral is more historic than out right surrendering and being occupied. As for them being vunerable to another invasion, add this to my idea. Once the USA goes back to neutral it is awarded with an army on every hex in its teritory. Since it can no longer go back to war the big force just sits there in case the Axis is stupid enough to go after them again. So what an axis sucessful invasion of North America would accomplish is knocking the US out of the War for good. It would not effect play balance and IMO be more historical than the Axis taking over all the USA by just taking Maine.

[JerseyJohn]

Rouge -- Amazing how the Soviet guerilla fighters and millions of other Soviets always got the wrong end of things from Stalin and the rest of their leadership. In some cases they decorated heroes, brought them back from the front, had them make a few speaches, and they were never seen again! It's interesting how film footage of Soviet firing squads and hangings generally show people who go to the execution with little or no struggle, they move in utter and complete hopelessness.

Panzer39 --

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying. It's a hard topic because, from the game mechanics point of view, both Canada and the U.S. can be successfully invaded and against the computer it isn't that hard.

On the other hand, having done that it isn't satisfying because it's so unlikely that Germany could have done it. In fact, I believe it would have been flat out impossible! And, even if successful, the point that's been made about occupying the place makes perfect sense -- the best thing would be to have it become neutral again, as you said.

What I'm saying, and I'm not trying to be a bore or anything, is if a change in game mechanics is made along these lines, I think it would be better to somehow prevent any Axis invasion of North America, either the U. S. or Canada.

Such a change may not be possibe, of course. If your solution would be then I'd go that way.

*** ***

That really is all I have to say, but I wrote all the stuff that follows so, instead of deleting it I'm leaving it as speculation and elaboration on points already made by all of us, please don't think I'm laboring this to death, just developing the key points a bit.

*** ***

My basic reasoning is this: The U. S. began preparing for war in early 1940. A peacetime draft was put into effect and actual industrial reamament was already well under way -- most of it at this time being sent to England instead of being distributed to American standing forces.

The navy was already strong with numerous first line ships being completed, as was the Army Air Force, which was soon to magically expand exponentially.

In terms of naval units, an Axis invasion force, even including the Bismark and Tirpitz (which wouldn't have been available yet), Scharnhorst and Gneisnau and all four "pocket battleships" (we'll assume the Graf Spee made it back to Germany), and the carrier Graf Zeppelin (never completed, aviators never trained, tactical training never developed, etc.)could not have defeated the U. S. Atlantic Fleet, which had additional elements posted in the Caribean and South America.

Add to that the voyage itself, the number of support vessels and transports -- only a fraction of which would be carrying troops, the vast majority would be carrying their heavy equipment and supplies.

In the Pacific, the U. S., which actually had a navy consisting of many hundreds of warships and support vessels, rarely attempted big lunges, usually it was short progressions so each landing was within range of logistical support from the previous island or island group taken.

The only big lunges the U. S. attempted were Guadalcanal and Operation Torch, both in 1942 and both involving comparatively small numbers of troops. Torch was quickly reinforced to corps stregnth units, but so much shipping and so many escort vessels were tied up that 1942 became a banner year for the Wolf Packs!

And, unlike Germany, America didn't have to worry about large hostile naval forces operating in her rear -- in the Pacific the Japanese navy was scattered far to the north. Even during the great surface battles around the island the main Japanese naval forces were still far to the north and would not move south en masse through the archepelagoes for fear of being ravaged by land based air attacks.

In a German invasion of the U. S. eastern coast, we assume the initial landing succeeds. They establish a foothold somewhere, anywhere, New York, New England, the Carolinas -- and their logistical line back to Europe is impossible. American forces would be mobilized throughout the 3,000 mile width of the country and moved easily by either rail or the growing road network, to contain the initial landings. And that's as far as they get.

Axis reinforcements and supplies (they had a terrible record in Russia of utilizing local industry) need to be transported across the widest part of a sizeable ocean with limited shipping abilities while American resources and military units are sent, via train or truck to the affected region and quickly attain an overwhelming superiority.

Having ousted an invasion of your homeland would

you be inclined to make peace? I doubt it and I know I wouldn't.

I know I'm getting carried away with all this, but I want to present things as fully as possible.

Hitler did want to conquer the Western Hemisphere and didn't think much of the United States, but his thoughts along these lines were in a post war with Britain and Russia either subdued or conquered outright. He spoke often of building an enormous post war fleet with numerous battleships (and very large ones at that) and aircraft carriers. Personally I think the earliest such a fleet could have been built even with all of Europe harnessed to the cause, was 1950, but that's all speculation and a different subject entirely.

It would be great, from a game point of view, to have a North American scenario, say circa 1950 or 1952, with an additional map of the added regions and Hitler's super navy, etc..

Assuming other events proceeded historically and the U. S. developed atomic bombs -- Germany would have a big edge in jets and a lock on long range rockets, but no Atom Bomb (their program never got off the ground and they didn't have the Soviet espionage agents to "borrow" the technology) --

That would be an interesting fight; probably the United States wouldn't have dropped A-Bombs on it's own soil, but B-29s could have carried them from American shores to anywhere in the Atlantic, making an ocean crossing as risky as ever, even for the new Blue Water Navy.

Even without that sort of immediate threat, one of the first things American tested nuclear bombs on, after the war, was a large grouping of capital ships at the Bikini Atoll; one surface test and an underwater test.

-- --

Great forum; enjoying the ideas all around.

-- --

[ November 03, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Flashblade]

Invasion of Canada & the US should simply be impossible. The Germans were never able to put together a strong enough Navy to protect a cross-channel invasion of England, even with the Luftwaffe flying cover for them... the idea that they could mount an invasion across the Atlantic in '40 is just silly. Germany simply did not have the infrastructure for this!

You could more or less simulate this by making all German units & HQs landing in North America 0 supply and giving the US & Canada Automatic mobilization of an Army in each city every turn.

This should make it virtually impossible to invade the US and Canada, as it should be!

[Rouge]

Originally posted by Flashblade:

Invasion of Canada & the US should simply be impossible. The Germans were never able to put together a strong enough Navy to protect a cross-channel invasion of England, even with the Luftwaffe flying cover for them... the idea that they could mount an invasion across the Atlantic in '40 is just silly. Germany simply did not have the infrastructure for this!

You could more or less simulate this by making all German units & HQs landing in North America 0 supply and giving the US & Canada Automatic mobilization of an Army in each city every turn.

This should make it virtually impossible to invade the US and Canada, as it should be!

What about all the man power and materials gained in the capture of the UK????? It is very hard to belive and yes with the size of the atlantic and the sheer storms that swell it yes it would be hard even later on, thats why it never happened in 1940;). Another point is that in 1940 Germany would have just finnished an invasion of england so you would be licking your wounds for about a year just on that.

[Flash Gordon]

If you make an Axis invasion of North America impossible, you change Strategic Command from a game into a re-enactment machine.

It SHOULD be possible. Only it should be extremely difficult and very unlikely.

IF the Kriegsmarine and Italian Navy manage to overpower the Royal Navy and the US Atlantic Fleet and

IF they are able to transport enough troops across the Atlantic to subdue the Canadian and US armies and

IF they have enough troops to garrison their "colonial" possession

sure, it should be possible.

However getting to those IF's should be pretty difficult. Germany's navy was pretty weak at the beginning of the war (and this is reflected in the game) and Gibraltar and the Suez prevented the Italian navy from breaking out into the Atlantic.

Plus, I don't think either side had adequate forms of transporting troops across large bodies of water. The invasion of England caused some headaches to the Wehrmacht because all they had were river barges which probably would have tipped over in the Channel. And the Kriegsmarine was pretty lukewarm to any idea of invading England. This is probably why every successful invasion of England in the game has to occur AFTER the USSR is subdued (and its resources plundered).

Anyway, let's not take things too far. SC is an enjoyable game and I've had a lot of fun playing it and I will probably continue to do so. A lot of our suggestions to improve on SC will probably have to wait on SC2, otherwise, poor Hubert will be writing patches and upgrades for the rest of his life.

I think one thing that could be done to prevent some of the more weird happenings in SC (which could possibly be used in SC2) are:

Make the purchase of units cost both MMP's AND TIME, i.e. make it impossible to just "buy" an aircraft carrier or a battleship...the way it stands right now, you pay the MMP's (if you have them) and Voila! you have a battleship in two weeks. Hmmm...does anyone remember the system in that old game Empire where the production of certain units took a certain amount of time. An introduction of something like this would get rid of most of the "Invasion USA" situations because by the time that Germany has accumulated enough resources and industrial might to build such a naval armada capable of crossing the Atlantic and invading the USA, it would take forever to do so.

-and-

Go to a bigger map which would hopefully include more of Canada and the USA. It's difficult to conquer the USSR because of its vast size. The same should apply for Canada and the USA. If the Axis do manage to build a powerful navy, etc. and land troops on North America, bear in mind that they will probably be in for a lonnnggg struggle.

-and-

Allow the player to select when the war ends. This can be selected at the beginning of the game. Make the default May 1946 like it is right now but allow people to play around with it. It does get a little frustrating when you are in the middle of a good fight only to have peace be declared.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I agree with the idea of all german hq going down to 0 while in the U.S, however, if this does become the case, the victory conditions for the axis must be revised. Personally, i think that the ultimate victory for the axis should be the conquest from Manchester to the Urals. And for the allies, unconditional surrender of Italy and Germany. It is to much to ask for the axis player to conquer america in a tcp/ip game.

CvM

[Hubert Cater]

The idea of having a Canadian and US east coast represented in the game was more or less to have those resources on map and to have a staging area for the transportation of Canadian and US troops in the war. I agree that as a result this leaves the game open to some loopy results but it will be more appropriately addressed in the forever possible SC2

Hubert

[JerseyJohn]

Hubert -- revised posting.

Having some sort of on the map representation of North America is a nice touch; the idea of building in German ocean-borne logistical problems as suggested seems very sound.

To represent the effect of additional dock facilities and resources harnessed that would improve Germanies chances, why not have a trans-oceanic Axis invasion next to impossible due to very low supply levels before the Axis conquers England, then more feasable after England is occupied, and very feasable after a Russian surrender -- if the U.S. isn't already in the war the game ends, if it is, the Axis can start putting his expanded navy into high gear and getting ready for the big event.

It's an abstraction, but so are other game features and all the same they work out fine.

**** ****

Original posting deleted.

**** ****

[ November 05, 2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]