SC owners - who's playing Hearts of Iron?

[jmbunnelle]

I've been playing Hearts of Iron for over a week now and think it's a great game so far. Then again, I'm a control freak who enjoys micromanagement. I also enjoyed EU2 so I knew exactly what to expect from HOI. To my knowledge, this is the first game that has allowed the user to coordinate offensives where the air attacks an hour before the armored blitz, with infantry coming in at a specified time. I find the interface very intutive and friendlier than the original EU one. The HUGE list of generals and govt. officials is mind boggling, each one having his own characteristics and personality type that affect gameplay. The research tree is vast and, as Germany, I have had to plan very carefully to invest in areas while simultaneosly stockpiling reserves of oil and rubber. Ahistorical diplomatic outcomes are also possible via the "Influence Nation" option. Theoretcially one could influence the U.S. elections in order to elect communist or fascist candidates into office, although this is very difficult to do and would surely use up a huge number of your diplomacy points (these acrue at the rate of one per month or so).

To me, SC and HOI are totally different and should not be compared. SC is turn-based and faster paced, much easier to leap right into and have a blast. HOI is real-time and plodding, saturated in micormanagement and minute details that will drive some insane. They are both on my harddrive to stay, that much I know.

As far as the A.I. goes, it's a challenge for me but if you're a strategic, micromanaging mastermind, you may find it lacking. I really can't say. People will bitch about it regardless. Yes, it has faults and does wacky things just like all A.I. Hardly news to anyone who has played solo computer wargames for the past 10-15 years.

Concerning the instability, the game crashed to desktop on me at least twice during the tutorial but it has not happened in-game yet. Might just be my good luck. Paradox is showing nice tech support and is communicating with those at the HOI forum about ongoing issues. They have also asked the user-community for help in filling the remaining general/officer portraits that they have had trouble locating, especially for the minor powers. It's quite obvious that the publisher pushed them for the product because the developer had a patch ready immediately after release. This is nothing new and will always happen with developers who cut distribution deals with corporate enterprises, the latter caring primarily about the bottom-line and little else ("Who cares if it crashes, get it out for the buying season!")

By the way, if you have the game and can't figure out how to change the resolution, there is an .exe file (called something similar to "setup") in the main HOI folder. This allows you to set the resolution and a few other options. I have no idea why they did not make this function more obvious.

Just in case I sound like some cheerleader for HOI, no, I agree with everyone that it is NOT the Advanced Third Reich-esque grand strategic mammajamma that we have been craving for years. I have stopped expecting it and doubt it will ever come (looks piningly out of the window into the rain with big tear in eye).

[ December 05, 2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: jmbunnelle ]

[HolzemFrumFloppen]

Originally posted by Panzer Cmdr:

Hopefully though Hubert will get back from his Sabbitical and get into SC2 with newly foung vigor to provide us with the turn-based grand strategy game (with options on micromanagement of resources, weather, linked techs, air power, island combat, more units, timed builds, stacking,etc. etc.) that we desire and would willing pay $49.99 for.

Interestingly, HOI has all of the above characteristics you mention (micromanagement of resources, weather, linked techs, et. al.). What it doesn't have is a "turn-based" approach. However, I find this bashing of HOI's "real-time" approach rather comical. I slow the thing down to "Very Slow"; it's so darn slow that it might as well be turn-based. The only sense of urgency I get at this speed is the need to grab another beer during gameplay.

And while I'm certain I'll evoke guffaws from other people on this board who have played HOI (and, interestingly, even from those who haven't played it), I myself haven't encountered any of these 'earth-shattering' bugs that people are talking about. Granted, I can't play HOI 8-12 hours every single day like some of the Paradox forum-hounds, so it's probably par for the course. But to date, I haven't had a single crash or anything out of the ordinary.

As for historicity in HOI, I'm dumbfounded by the complaints of some HOI players that the game is out of control when it comes to historical precedent. I watch people post about how Finland should have more military units, or France have twice the amount of steel they start the campaign with, etc., etc.,.... and one hour later, they scream bloody ahistorical murder when they hear of someone else's game where Italy scoops up Spain in a powerful mechanized sweep. It's a paradox, in most cases. Those posters WANT an ahistorical situation for their chosen countries (or enemies), such as "more" of this or "less" of that, but then they DON'T want anything to deviate from world history when it doesn't fit in with their plans.

If memory serves, SC went through EXACTLY the same "growing pains" when it was released. Go back in time to those early posts and you'll see some very interesting vitriol being passed around the board as regards Hubert's gem. Personally, I thought it was a great game right out of the box. But we've had FIVE patches so far and another is on the way. Some screamed that the game was "unfinished"; but was it? Heck no. Again, I thought it was fantastic from the get-go.

The HOI forums gather a lot more "loose cannons", as it were, crying about the game's lack of this or that, blah blah blah. And even though there were some rather insane posts during SC's initial release, it was a lot calmer here than on the HOI boards. Why? Well, these boards are MUCH more akin to a FAMILY; the SC board is smaller, tighter, mostly due to Battlefront's marketing by word-of-mouth. But believe me, if SC's players -- potential or current -- equalled HOI's numbers, you'd have a malevolent mass here blowing its stack because of some ridiculous, minute, 'missing' feature.

Count your blessings, folks. We've got two gems now: SC and HOI. Two different approaches to a gigantic conflict. More meat for the feast, I say. Enjoy it while you can.

[J P Wagner]

jmbunnelle...thanks for the resolution tip...maybe now I'll be able to play full screen on my laptop...thanks again...

[SeaMonkey]

Yes, Enjoy SC and HoI now! For lurking on the horizon (Q3 2003) is SR2010

[arby]

Originally posted by jmbunnelle:

I've been playing Hearts of Iron for over a week now and think it's a great game so far.

How far did you get in the game? I've played two games, both as America, and gotten into mid-1944 with each. Some things I like very much. The research thing is just wonderful, and the decision-making involved in building units -- and deciding which ones to build -- is great, too. And some of the stuff with combat, such as planning and coordinating attacks, is pretty neat, too.

But on so many levels the games is a disaster. It's micromanagement hell. Want to send your American air force to Britain? Lots of fun: you load them onto your aircraft carrier, move your aircraft carrier fleet to the Channel, unload the planes, move your aircraft carrier fleet back to Boston (be sure to put it in port, otherwise it will exceed its range and then things go all to hell), move it out of port (you can't load planes onto carriers, or troops onto transports, while those are in port), load the planes onto your aircraft carrier, and repeat the whole process. Since your carriers can only carry one plane at a time, that's going to take a while.

The Pacific war doesn't work, at least insofar as it involves carrier operations, which was the big aspect of that theatre. The problems are that, as mentioned, carriers can only carry one air unit, and air units aren't particularly effective against ships. (Certainly not as effective as they were in real life.) The combat model just doesn't work here. If two opposing fleets enter the same sea zone, it's resolved solely as surface-to-surface combat. In fact, air warfare is a mess. If you're involved in a land battle, you have to specify each attack that your planes make; otherwise they'll just sit there. You can have 12 fighters right next to the province that's being attacked, and unless you tell them to, they're not going to intercept the opponents planes. Cooperation between Allies is non-existent. The economic model is a joke; Germany doesn't have much oil, but it has lots of coal, so it can simply go on the world market and buy as much oil as it needs in exchange for coal.

I could go on -- yeah, there's bugs, as the disappearance of 24 of my units in Bratislava will attest, conquering islands in the Pacific is a bitch because each time you do, you have to establish a convoy there so your troops don't get out of supply and disband, the AI sucks, and so forth. Some of these things can be fixed, but the real problem as I see it is the design decision to do the game in real time, as opposed to turn-based, mode. With three theaters to cover, there's just no way to handle that in real time.

[jmbunnelle]

HolzemFrumFloppen:

Yeah, I tend to stay away from forums such as the HOI one for the exact reasons you state, unless I absolutely have to go there for essential information. I've been spoiled by the smaller, more intimate forums like Battlefront's SC and CMBB, and SimHQ's European Air War and IL-2. I know what you mean. People only bitch about ahistorical situations if it results in a negative outcome for them.

I also agree with you about slowing the game down. That is absolutely essential in the beginning just to figure out what the hell is going on. It will also allow you to get a handle on what types of messages you want to turn off before they start popping up fifty at a time. They're scarce in the 1936 scenario, when things are slower. However if you start in 1939, get ready to hit the enter key a million times to get rid of them.

On the slowest setting, the game is manageable for me. I think they should have made the "normal" setting much slower, as it moves way too quickly, especially if you're spread out all over the globe.

Arby:

I don't know how the Pacific works. I don't enjoy it because island-hopping bores the crap out of me. So I have been concentrating exclusively on Europe. But I suspect I'd feel the same way you do, that the game models the situation poorly. It certainly wouldn't be the first. Personally, I'd prefer the game only handle Europe and make the map War In Europe scale. Guess I'm masochistic!

[ December 05, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: jmbunnelle ]

[jmbunnelle]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

jmbunnelle...thanks for the resolution tip...maybe now I'll be able to play full screen on my laptop...thanks again...

You can also open up a file in Notepad--the file that the .exe uses--and set the resolution manually. Just replace the 800 and 600 with whatever.

It allows for more of the map to be seen but the interface is not squared off as nicely. Also, download the newest patch before you try it because it fixes some issues with the mouse pointer doing odd things in alternate resolutions.

[Wolfpack]

Well, I bought it as soon as it hit the stores, and after playing for a week or so, I'm still undecided. My impressions of the game are all going to be made when and if Paradox gets all the bugs worked out and makes it a game instead of a "What's the smallest country I can conquer the world with" game.

On the plus side -

Diplomatic model works relatively well. I like not being padlocked into set sides.

Research is great. It allows for much more customization of your forces based on who you're controlling and your situation.

Three distinct alliances. Seperating the Soviets and their allies into a COMINTERN group is the way to go.

Despite what others say, I prefer the province map, although it could be better designed to make military decisions more important. Large scale encirclements and such should be possible at this scale, but with the present province layout, it's a bit too tricky.

Ability to play smaller nations. As it is now, this feature is really low on the list. If Paradox improves the AI though it will be much more fun. I'd like to take Poland or another small country and try to improve on their performance, not conquer Germany with them.

Convoy interdiction is done better than any other game I've seen. It's a good system and I wouldn't mind seeing SC move in that type of direction.

On the downside -

AI AI AI AI...did I mention AI? Perhaps the worst AI I've seen in a wargame since a certain American Civil War game that shall remain unnamed. To make my point. It is possible (Dare I say easy) to conquer Europe, including Russia, With the units Germany has starting in 1939. The AI cannot understand the concept of a defensive line, it does not build troops, it doesn't invest in tech or if it does, it does it in a very poor manner, it cannopt perform a decent amphibious assault (We all remember this one, thank you for improving that Hubert) In short, it turns the game into a laugh of a wargame.

Economic modelling is, again, simply awful. Strategic resources are completely worthless in the game because, unless you're playing Cuba or some such nation, you will be able to max out your stock in something, then you just have to put it on the world market and get what you need. Even if you're at war with everyone else. It completely takes out the motivation to go after oilfields or other resources.

A bit heavy on the absolute micromanagent. By this I mean that you have no option to delegate anything. I want all this in there, convoys, research, economics, building, ect. But I would like the option to delegate some of it to computer control. I think they should be able to set it up so I don't have to work out the convoy system if I choose not to, or be able to set research goals to work toward.

Poor OOB. Easiest one to fix, and one that the players are working on now.

Leader system is too narrow, especially for naval units. High ranking naval leaders should be able to command more than 12 ships, and generals should be able to command more than 12 divisions. I'd like to see one further "height" to the command structure, like Front Commanders and Grand Admirals.

Bugs and missing features are everywhere. Half of what little there is in the manual isn't even in the game yet. And I get CTDs at least once a game. I haven't had a game do that to me in years.

Absolutely the single worst piece of documentation I have ever seen. Not even taking into account the things it says should be in the game and aren't, there are a ton of things that are in the game that aren't explained at all. If I didn't read the message boards I'd still be lost. Roughly 35 pages are devoted to WWII history. Neat, but the time could have been better spent elsewhere. Going right along with this is the pretty pitiful tutorial.

Needs some type of "Zones of Interest" Lets face it, Romania has no business romping through the Urals. Italy has no need to be doing the same in Finland (Saw that one in my last game). This leads to some really silly games. Considering how each power had a relatively well defined ZOI in WWII (Except maybe the US), this could be fixed.

Nukes and advanced nuclear techs are too quick to get. Even working full out, it should take longer to get nukes. They need to add a really long and expensive ramp up program for these. This is the one area of research that's beginning from a completely fresh start. And ICBMs? They don't even belong in a game that ends in '48.

Strategy First. Do you need more than that? How about a new motto. "Strategy First...We guarantee we'll get it out first so you can pay to beta test for us and if enough of you do, maybe next time you'll get a game that's complete."

I'm completely ambivilant on the Turn-based/realtime wars. I see both sides, and they both make sense. Realtime is nice because you can have things like night and day, and better coordinate your efforts. Turnbased is much easier to play, and less stressful on the player. Either way you go, if you make a good WWII strategy game, I'll buy it.

There you go. The main thing that irritates me is rushing a game out before it's close to done. The best thing about Battlefront is that they (and their partners) avoid this pitfall. Nothing will erode your customer base quicker than to make them pay for an unfinished product. Patches should be to improve a game, not to make it playable and fun. And despite all the negative things I've said, I'm going to be patient on this game, because the premise is solid, and the game has potential, but they're really going to have to put in some extra hours to redeem what is at the moment a huge disappointment.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by arby:

Want to send your American air force to Britain? Lots of fun: you load them onto your aircraft carrier, move your aircraft carrier fleet to the Channel, unload the planes, move your aircraft carrier fleet back to Boston (be sure to put it in port, otherwise it will exceed its range and then things go all to hell), move it out of port (you can't load planes onto carriers, or troops onto transports, while those are in port), load the planes onto your aircraft carrier, and repeat the whole process. Since your carriers can only carry one plane at a time, that's going to take a while.

Or you could just put all the planes you want to move back into the force pool and then relocate them with a couple of clicks to the province you want. Carriers are for air combat not air transport.

[HolzemFrumFloppen]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

Or you could just put all the planes you want to move back into the force pool and then relocate them with a couple of clicks to the province you want. Carriers are for air combat not air transport.

Whoa.... haven't tried this. Are you saying that by moving an air unit to one's force pool, you can re-deploy that same air unit to one of your allies' provinces? Are there any restrictions? Would love to know! Can't try it out right now since I'm still working late on a project.

Thanks for this info.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Wolfpack:

There you go. The main thing that irritates me is rushing a game out before it's close to done. The best thing about Battlefront is that they (and their partners) avoid this pitfall. Nothing will erode your customer base quicker than to make them pay for an unfinished product. Patches should be to improve a game, not to make it playable and fun. And despite all the negative things I've said, I'm going to be patient on this game, because the premise is solid, and the game has potential, but they're really going to have to put in some extra hours to redeem what is at the moment a huge disappointment.

Couldn't agree more.

Each of your statements is right on the money, which, apparently, is where most of the people involved in this absolute FIASCO of premature release... have put theirs. Worship the golden calf and expect some eventual prophetic-like comeuppance. :eek:

Game companies are like renegade governments, who will continue to rely on pretty propaganda and mighty "mis-statements" if they suppose that they can get away with it.

It is up to the gaming community, of which I have been a member for over 40 years, to put a stop to it.

So, all right mister big talker, how?

Example, I'll consider buying this game WHEN and IF it's done. Now, I wouldn't give you 5 crumpled bucks for it.

[J P Wagner]

It's funny to read about the early release of HOI on their board...some blame Paradox, while other blame publisher Strategy First for pressuring Paradox to have the game ready before Christmas...but the more read about Bolt's AI logic enhancements, the better I feel that a very good game may come from this...since SC, Combat Misson, and Champ. Man. still keep me busy, I'll await the patches for the game rather than use his changes though.

[viper_ss]

I've been playing HOI for about three days and here's my feelings on it...

I think it's a decent game but there are too many bugs and flaws.

1. The real-time element is weak and it is nothing more than a turn based game with one-hour turns (you can speed up how fast these turns go by giving you the impression of real-time).

2. There are way too many bugs and too many gameplay elements that are not discussed in the manual. I just don't have a complete grasp on how production and economics work. I never tell if what seems like it should happen doesn't, is it a bug or I have just misinterpretted the rules.

3. The convoy system in the game is terrible and unrealistic.

4. The largest peeve for me is the battle system. There just isn't enough information given back about the status of a battle. You pretty have to wait for a battle to finish and when it does, it says you won or lost. That's it! No losses, morale change or anything.

Overall, the game has some really interesting features and the detail is great but the 4 areas I mentioned above really take the game away from being a good strategic level game. I hope this helps.

[Russ Bensing]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

Or you could just put all the planes you want to move back into the force pool and then relocate them with a couple of clicks to the province you want. Carriers are for air combat not air transport.

Yeah, you could do that, except it doesn't work. Units can only be strategically deployed within the provinces you own.

Did you actually try that before you suggested it?

Meanwhile, semi-good news: the 12 units that I had in Minsk and that had mysteriously disappeared have now mysteriously reappeared. Unfortunately, I can only deploy them in the US. Which means I have to schlep them by transport back to Europe, because you can't redeploy land units outside your home provinces either. Total bummer. At least when my 24 land units disappeared in Bratislava, I could redeploy them there when they reappeared a few weeks later. Of course, I couldn't redeploy them there until I stationed another unit there, but oh well.

This game is seriously screwed.

[Norse]

I got HoI a few days ago, and I love it!

The things people are whining about, that ahistorical outcomes may happen when they shouldn't etc. This is exactely why I love this game. It is TERRIBLY difficult to take a small nation, who lack resources, and send it head on against a huge power and manage to win. But it is possible! If you are very creative, and find some killer strategy, then who knows!

Just for fun, try playing Luxemburg and go head on against Germany. As you see, it's difficult as hell, near impossible, but there is that small chance that just maybe, maybe, you can do it. And that's why I love it

As for the AI, I think it's good so far. I played USSR in my first game, and Germany swamped my ass

I was terrified, and started over in 1936. Didn't build more units in the beginning, but created my own USSR "Maginot Line" behind the Dniepr river, and doubled the industrial capabilities behind it! In front of the defences, I didn't upgrade anything... in fact, I'd even blow up the infrastructure there if I could, to bog the Germans down when they are coming.

With that down, I massproduced elite infantery with engineer battallions added to them, and stashed them with great leaders at the defensive barricades.

Few games allow creativeness like this, and I abselutely love it

SC is good too, but it is a very diffierent kind of game.

As for the real time versus turn part, playing real time really isn't much of a hassle. Playing real time gives you abselutely control of your units and your attacks. You can order your units to attack 7am in the morning, while using your airunits to harass them during the night. If you think it is stressing to play real time, don't worry, it isn't that bad. The pace of the game can be turned down, and once an order is given, it takes some time for the unit to arrive at destination, leaving you with time to focus on other units. If it gets too much, then you can pause the game. Yes, you can pause it in multiplayer too, and you get a few seconds of pause before the other players can unpause it again. So real time doesn't detract from your control of what is going on. In fact, it gives you complete control.

~Norse~

[General Billote]

Hoi tip for air units- Noticed some of you were having problems with this, I did too. There is a box you can check in the lower right hand corner of the battle coordination box. When clicked it will repeat air missions indefinately ( even intercept missions). It would be great if this kind of stuff was pointed out in the manual though! How could they put a game out, with this kind of complexity, with a manual so absurdly sub-standard?

[Norse]

Because noone reads the manual anyway. That's what we got forums for, so people can come online and ask the same questions repeatedly

[J Wagner]

General Billote, did you by chance post this on the Paradox message board?...this is such a common complaint there that you would be viewed as a live saver among the masses!

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Norse:

Just for fun, try playing Luxemburg and go head on against Germany. As you see, it's difficult as hell, near impossible, but there is that small chance that just maybe, maybe, you can do it. And that's why I love it

~Norse~

You actually like the thought that a country that held out for...what? 4 hours? can even think about going head to head with Germany?

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Russ Bensing:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bruce70:

Or you could just put all the planes you want to move back into the force pool and then relocate them with a couple of clicks to the province you want. Carriers are for air combat not air transport.

Yeah, you could do that, except it doesn't work. Units can only be strategically deployed within the provinces you own.

</font>

[killmore]

I don't think micromanagement is over powering in HOI.

I would say it is just right if they would implement better way to pick distibution of your resource points. The sliders are horific and you can never get the right value!