SC2 - Atomic Bomb Option

[Kelly's Heroes]

Here is something most people who decry the use of the Atomic bombs to end the war, won't tell you:

The Japanese had plans to murder all Allied prisoners starting in September of 1945

After the war, it became clear that there existed a high command order -- issued from the War Ministry in Tokyo -- to kill all remaining POWs.

This order, read in part:

Whether they are destroyed individually or in groups, and whether it is accomplished by means of mass bombing, poisonous smoke, poisons, drowning, or decapitation, dispose of them as the situation dictates. It is the aim not to allow the escape of a single one, to annihilate them all, and not to leave any traces.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bataan/filmmore/ps_order.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bataan/peopleevents/e_atrocities.html

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One former internee of the Kuching camp under Colonel Suga wrote "It has now been established beyond all doubt that Suga intended to 'dispose' of all prisoners on September 15th (1945). In a detailed order for the day, all people in captivity were placed in one of four categories and were to be liquated in the following manner:

1. Women, children, nuns -- to be given poisoned rice

2. Internee men and Catholic fathers to be shot and burnt

3. 500 British-American-Dutch and Australian POWS to be marched to the mountains to be shot and burnt.

4. The sick and weak left at Lintang Main Camp to be bayoneted and the entire camp destroyed by fire." p. 648

Other internees also write about the rumors and warnings they had heard about their forth-coming extermination on "the Japanese Government order to Kill them all."

(p. 613.)

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/Formosa/taiwandocs.html

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To learn more:

http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/military/pow/pwcmps-2.htm

[ March 28, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Some of the posts on this are getting way off track.

Its hard for Westerners to fully understand Japanese behaviour in WWII. Two different mindsets and two different approaches. Japanese concept of death greatly differed from the Western concept of death. That different mindset is also why we have issues with the way the Japanese treated our prisoners of war. We had the same problems in the Korean and Vietnam wars. Even the Russian mindset is not something we fully understand, and as such, we wrongly justify or explain certain Russian behaviour during WWII.

But entering discussions about these things, is like discussing politics or religion, it gets heated very fast and people get thier feelings hurt. So perhaps its better we don't do those things here? After all, if it wasn't for SC, most of us probably wouldn't have anything in common with each other, so lets stick to why we are here.

Atomic bombs... one hex effect is more than enough. There should be a limit on the number you could build. And the research should be extremly difficult to achieve.

As I mentioned in another post, for certain tech advances, they should have a pre-req of multible basic techs. For example, Strat Bomber tech level 5 should be a pre-req for a atomic bomb, along with Industrial TL5. And you shouldn't be able to start researching an atomic bomb until you achieved Industrail TL5. So after you get Industrial TL5, you can now put a research chit in Atomic Bomb, TL0. There should also be a % chance (thats your que Edwin P), that as you achieve each TL advance in Atmoic Bombs, that there is some sort of catatrosphic accident which shuts the program down.

With the above, Germany would be foolish to attempt to research Atomic bombs, because before they achieve it, they will have lost. No one else can afford it except for the US, and then only at the expense of other items, like ground units and aircraft.

And now we are back to where we started. Atomic weapons where a fanatsy weapon that only the super rich could pursue. Germanies atomic research program was a search for an alternative energy source, not for weapons.

So if you want to put it in as a toy for the US to strive for, go ahead. But if you put it in for anyone else, you are no longer portraying WWII, you are doing a Fanatsy War with WWII weapons. If you are going do that, might as well put the Lizards in (reference Harry Turtledove's novels).

[ March 28, 2004, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Kelly's Heroes]

Well, perhaps I'm reading the wrong history books.

But most of the problems the Germans encountered were the result of German indifference and/or Hitler's interference.

In 1937, Germany had the world's first jet plane. But because Hitler couldn't see a use for it, it was ignored.

Even when the Me-262 was built, Hitler wanted it used as a bomber.

Should the person who plays Germany in the game suffer from such incompetence?

Similarly, Germany did make some efforts at developing an Atomic Bomb (and it wasn't for more power).

Germany had the materials and infrastructure, but lacked the motivation. No one knew in 1941-42 if such a bomb was possible and if it would work.

Japan had also pursued an Atomic bomb policy. However, much like everything else, the Japanese war effort was divided between the Army and Navy (yes, they both pursued their own nuke research).

The Japanese didn't think the USA could develop the Bomb before them, since the Japanese had actually pursued research in this field before the Americans (in addition to biological warfare).

In March/1945 Germany sent to Japan 1,200 pounds of Uranium Oxide, plus the parts for V rockets and Me-262s, as well as scientists aboard U-234. In doing this, I guess Germany wanted to give Japan more power to fuel their light bulbs.

Atomic bombs were not fantasy, and should be a viable (but very expensive) option.

Clearly, the player will be playing the game with 20/20 vision and will know what mistakes not to make.

Surely, if Hiter had the option to do it all over again (knowing what the future held), don't we think he would have taken a different path and avoided mistakes, while pursuing certain fields he had ignored previously?

[Edwin P.]

I think that all countries with the right resources should be able to research atomic but that realistically speaking only the US and Germany will be able to afford it, the US more so.

What are the right resources - access to heavy water. I would assume that the US automatically has it and that the only source in Europe is the mine resource hex in Norway. So, any European power that wants to start researching atomic weapons must occupy this hex and control Oslo. No Heavy Water = No Atomic Research. This will effectively limited Atomic research in Europe to Germany, but still allow the UK or USSR or even Italy to pursue it if they control Norway, a most unlikely occurance. It also gives the Allies a way to stop Germany's research program.

I also agree with Shaka's comment that Building an Atomic bomb should be linked to development's in Long Range. No Long Range Tech Lvl X (4 or 5) = Can't Build the Bomb, even though you have researched it.

[ March 28, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

I think that all countries with the right resources should be able to research atomic but that realistically speaking only the US and Germany will be able to afford it, the US more so.

What are the right resources - access to heavy water. I would assume that the US automatically has it and that the only source in Europe is the mine resource hex in Norway. So, any European power that wants to start researching atomic weapons must occupy this hex and control Oslo. No Heavy Water = No Atomic Research. This will effectively limited Atomic research in Europe to Germany, but still allow the UK or USSR or even Italy to pursue it if they control Norway, a most unlikely occurance. It also gives the Allies a way to stop Germany's research program.

I also agree with Shaka's comment that Building an Atomic bomb should be linked to development's in Long Range. No Long Range Tech Lvl X (4 or 5) = Can't Build the Bomb, even though you have researched it.

This would certainly make Norway become quite valuable. I could foresee quite the naval, air and land battles for that country and resource.

[Skanvak]

On the Atomic Bomb I don't see why TL5 should be a preriquisite as France was researching the Bomb at the begining of the war.

I've got some confirmation on this and the fact that about 20L of heavy water was transferred to England in a recent biography on Einstein.

Beside I see another reason why not. A final technology should never be a preriquisite because they don't represent ultimate limit but much more what we think realistic to acheive as advance in the time frame of the war. The final level should represent a somewhat better acheivement that what was acheive in reality and therefore could not be a prerequisite IMO.

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:

Surely, if Hiter had the option to do it all over again (knowing what the future held), don't we think he would have taken a different path and avoided mistakes, while pursuing certain fields he had ignored previously?

You are forgetting something:

The 3rd Reich never used chemical weapons, even though it owned quite a lot of them.

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by xwormwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kelly's Heroes:

Surely, if Hiter had the option to do it all over again (knowing what the future held), don't we think he would have taken a different path and avoided mistakes, while pursuing certain fields he had ignored previously?

You are forgetting something:

The 3rd Reich never used chemical weapons, even though it owned quite a lot of them. </font>

[Liam]

the 3rd Reich never used Chemical weapons on who?

What was the long range NYC Bomber for? to deliver Propaganda?

What about all the Camps,they used them, selectively

[jon_j_rambo]

Germans didn't use WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction)? Are you kidding me?

Gased millions, hung, tortured, experimented, name it. A rifle butt to the face is a Weapon a Weapon of Mass Destruction when it's your face.

The entire Final Solution was a WMD, which had skilled engineers building death camps, managers who coordinated the railsystems, fingerpointers of hate against the Jews, & street thugs. All of this came right from the top, & the people of Germany went with them.

The Germans found killing women & children rather easy in Poland & other minor countries. Tanks against farmers isn't a fair match. Those little scumbag thugs weren't so tough against the RAF, Patton's tanks, & pissed off Russians with machine guns in the sewers of Stalingrad.

"What the Hell were you thinking? Did you ever here of General Motors?" --- Band of Brothers soldier to the finished (surrendered) German leaders

"Christ died to make men Holy, let us live to make men free" --- Battle Hymn of the Republic.

It's a freedom thing,

Legend from Boise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT

[Skanvak]

No the 3rd Reich never used chemical weapons on the battlefield because of Hitler experience in WWI. The 3rd Reich thought their were not "warrior weapons" or something like that.

The Japanese and british (to a lesser extend and in retaliate to the Japanese doing so) used chemical weapon on the pacific theaters.

Kelly, speculating on what Hitler will or will not have done evenwith knowledge of the future is well just risky speculation. Just reading the in troduction to "Mein kampft" make you reallize that he might just have done the same.

[ March 30, 2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Skanvak ]

[Liam]

True, battlefield Gas was not used By Germany, not like it would've done much. It wasn't trench warfare any more, units were more scattered. Hitler was blinded by Gas in the Trenches of WW1.

Hell, if it was being used and I was a Fighter Squadron leader, I'd say our first priority is those enemy trucks carrying Poison, then let those handling it deal with the outbreak on their own men.

It definitely wouldn't have made a difference IMO in WW2. They used whatever they could get their hands on that had killing power. Plus as they had in WW1, gas masks cut out 'most' the damage, enough for the average fighting man to keep going.

Back on Japan. Atomics, at first aren't Chem Warfare, but longterm they definitely have radiation, a dirty sorta substance. Hardly what we might call payback.. For the Millions of Chinese murdered. The Millions of Asian women sold into Sexual slavery to serve the Japanese 'needs' who to this day have no compensation from the Japanese Goverment. Plus the Spineless attack on American and British/Allied Forces all over the Pacific. Remeber folks, the Japanese came to Midway to take the Island. They intended to take over India, and eventually carve an empire outta the World and fully support Hitler in a Japanese-German EurAsia. USA was merely in the way<however underestimated, the Sleeping Giant.>

[Skanvak]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/AMH/AMH-23.html

For an american military historian point of view on Japan Strategy and goals in the war.

http://serveur.ichrdd.ca/francais/commdoc/publications/femmes/tokyoFemmesReconfort.html

On confort women (they give a number and I guess you will not contest it once you see the source).

[Liam]

Skanvak, officially, probably about right, unofficially, I'll bet many many more suffered.

I wouldn't want to count. Of course Japanese alone aren't to blame... Whole World had their dark secrets.

Lastly, any Quebec related site on such information makes me a bit uncomfortable. They're one of the worst IMO in the World when it comes to Rape, Abuse, and Covering it all up. Look at Montreal, they put Runaway Street Kids in with Full Juvy Offenders. If you are caught molesting 20 children in Montreal, the Judge will likely just tell you you cannot see children anymore

this I know for a fact from the street kids that live there, dozens if not hundreds.. next to Thailand it's a Pedafile and prostitution paradise. Exploitation Capitol of N.America. Though I hear Ontaria's drugs are worse.

[Skanvak]

For the Japanese prb, I don't think so. If you accept the survivor report to be true (which I do), the Japanese army would not have needed a lot more than 200,000 sex slaves (with your numbers, Liam, they will have nearly 1 women for each soldeirs which would have been overtly costly and uneeded). Even with that number that stay the greatest crime of Japan.

[Liam]

true, 1 per soldier is a bit much. I'm sure there was isolated cases of just rape though that match more a cool Mill. Not too much different. Although the amount of assualt, rape, murder, theft cannot be calculated

[jon_j_rambo]

You could sit around all day & talk about the Rape & Plunder of the Japs. Well, it was the Army's fault, no it was the Emperor's fault, wait no...it was this guy's fault. You can read/write books to whatever you want to believe. What's that 80's song? "No one ever is to blame" --- by Howard Jones. Whatever...

I'm sure Truman said,"Whatever, nuke 'em all them Jap bastards."

Same goes for today,"And to the people who knocked down this building, you're going to hear from all of us." --- George W. Bush, President of the United States. And the crowd chanted,"USA, USA, USA, USA, USA..."

[Skanvak]

Actually, I limit myself to what accounted as warcrime. Because all army, even nowdays, have rogues soldiers that rape and plunder. We will never end if one frame an army for any rogue soldier crimes. Because the accusation will go both way very quickly.

Even on warcrimes, some English officers testified in defence of German Officers on the ground that they did the same things. So it is important to focus on what is outstanding.

[jon_j_rambo]

German prisoners were treated like princes in the United States. What did the Nazis do to our prisoners who "legally" escaped by the rules of war in the "Great Escape" (book & movie based on a true story).

"Remember the Fifty"

[Kelly's Heroes]

Originally posted by Skanvak:

Actually, I limit myself to what accounted as warcrime. Because all army, even nowdays, have rogues soldiers that rape and plunder. We will never end if one frame an army for any rogue soldier crimes. Because the accusation will go both way very quickly.

Even on warcrimes, some English officers testified in defence of German Officers on the ground that they did the same things. So it is important to focus on what is outstanding.

True.

War brings out the worst in human nature. There are exceptions in all armies.

However, many historians and military authorities all agree that the Japanese military was simply more barbaric or cruel on so many levels.

For example:

Allied POWs suffered a 2% death rate in German prison camps.

However, Allied POWs suffered a whopping 37% death rate in Japanese prison camps.

In addition, there was a Japanese Gov't order to kill all 100,000 Allied POWs after September 15, 1945.

[ March 31, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[Skanvak]

Kelly

Indeed, that's what I mean by outstandings.

Rambo,

I agree on German bahaviour (my grand father finished the war in a concentration camp for having escaped from a POW camp). though Germany still trated POW correctly as long as they did not try to evade.

The reasons I don't like the POW issue is that the Russians treated badly the POW, even liberated POW (after being liberated by the Russians, my grand father escaped from the Russian who were taking them to the east).

Same reasons for Nanking, as the Russians behave very badly when they took Berlin (thousands of rapes).

I did not mean that Japan did not made those crimes either (the POW ratio is in line with my own source).

On the other hand there are nothing like the Comfort women among the allies.

That is, Kelly, I am more comparing Japan to Germany than Western allies (I think that wasn't clear and I made it not clearer lately).

[Liam]

The Japanese were the first to draw blood. Were the ambitious Empire Builders who fought bloody war after bloody war to get what they wanted. They DOWed Korea-China-USA-UK-and what remained of and the Dutch within a small span of time to build their Empire. These are only the nations that I can name. I'm certian the Japenese would've stopped after taking portions of Alaska, all the US Pacific property and that's for the Eastern Expanse? I doubt they'd of attempted an immediate invasion of the USA.

The US and Allied Military were more humane. The Germans hated the Russians and Slavic people, they also didn't particularly like the French. They were Fair Game... If you do not believe this then merely look at the Mass Destruction that went along with their Wake? Japanese to a similar degree were 'harsh' on the Asians. More so than you'd expect. They like the Germans saw themselves as something special, racially and that the rest of the world was to serve them on hand and foot. If you want to cover this up, simply look at the villages that do not exist anymore? Look at the amount of art, antiques, jewelry and other items that were looted and pillaged. There were so many crimes in the Axis World most of the nations revolted with Resistance Groups and Partisans. To this day the world loathes German and Japanese in places, the point wasn't merely being conquored and stepped on, they were mistreated awfully. The Crime couldn't actually be written on a piece of paper in terms of amount of it. You can't create percentages and Figures, Ballparks maybe... The Cost in Human lives alone by murder still isn't a 'precise one' The Germans and Japanese treated their conquored Peoples like Slaves. Live in a controlled Minor aside from Scandanavia or the Netherlands to get a feel for this and you'll understand, Erwin Rommel was an attractive figure and so was Yamamoto but they were serving the Devils<so to speak>...<the crimes were not just rogue, they were typical of evil empires> The US and UK during that 'era' didn't technically do that.<there were isolated cases but to be honest, they were Rogues>

I will not say there wasn't some honour in the German and Japenese Ranks, but sadly that was ruined by percentage of Folks who were evil. Apparently since they wouldn't surrender till the last man, the Dignity didn't stretch to the leadership where it may of made a difference

((Only difference between Russia and Germany at the time, is they were a bit less ambitious and they won))

[ March 31, 2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Skanvak]

Liam, at least we seem to reach a sastisactory agreement on Japanese gaols.

I am only advocating that the Japanese crime were only warcrimes of less (but not minor) importance than the Germany's warcrimes and crime against humanity which was funded on an ideology of hatred (and murder in mass its own people). ((look back at the reason I reacted in first place))

I am not covering anything up (but if we go to harshness of occupation, we should look at our past first so it will not be outstanding enough, even though you're right)

[Edwin P.]

This post has gone really off topic, so I will offer a few comments;

1. I recall how well the US Army treated the American Indians, who they regarded as inferior.

2. I wonder if the rapid development of Japanese society and the Japanese culture impacted their view of prisoners and death.

3. Some might say that the Japanese fought according to their culture at that point in time and that they delt with their enemies as the US Army dealt with American Indians in its war to tame the west and as some Chinese Warlords (who would raze entire villages slaying every man, woman and child) dealt with opponents to their rule.

4. Fighting a war in Asia in the 1900s was not like fighting a war in Europe. They (China and Japan) waged war in a manner which many in the West considered barbaric.

5. One might also consider how the French fought against the FLN in Algeria and whether the tactics used in that war by both sides were similar to the tactics used by the Japanese.

[ April 01, 2004, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Interesting take on this, Edwin.

Regarding the Plain's Wars, conversely, most troopers saved the last bullet for themselves.