RAI is the Sicilian Defence of SC. Rambo (Inventor) vs Yoda must be played Now!

[zappsweden]

RAI=Rambo All-In

I am getting impatient just hearing the talks around this. The only logical thing now is that the creator (Rambo) face the guru of SC (Terif) and we will see what this discovery really means.

Anyone that is waiting for this super match, pls stand up, pls stand up.

[zappsweden]

Rambo, you are on a hot streak. Back your claims up and beat Yoda with it if you think you have "the game".

[zappsweden]

Terif, you dismissed this strategy saying that it is just old strategies that got abit polished but still nothing new. This is a perfect opportunity to show the SC world once again that Yoda is Yoda, Go For It!

[zappsweden]

What's the matter with you guys, both chicken???

[hellraiser]

the weekend is coming - saturday is terif vs rambo usually

So stay tuned to SCTV

Okay, after a few testgames vs Zapp, and a few times hotseated I think I can draw some conclusion over this strategy:

1. The use of FAF+Monty+2 RAF in turn 2 was introduced by Avatar a while ago; what JJR did was to add into the mix the early denmark naval attack - basically allies assume an offensive stance from the beggining, going all-in in an attempt to distract axis and to force its mpps to be spent mainly on reinforcing air (and less probably) naval units.

Malta RAF is opped 1st turn in england (if the bid allows), monty is bought, french disband marseilles BB and buy a corps in marseilles to be sent to malta.

All allied ships sail to denmark/LC; usually sub hunt is ignored.

Uk corps loaded in transport, sniffing around danish shores to force axis to operate troops to protect kiel port, towns or AFs in the open (used for axis invasion of LC) - corps can disembark and advance towards denmark.

Ships will force 'surprise' attacks from baltic sub and together with uk corps will try to capture the danish straits, to prevent denmark from falling for several turns. The rest of the ships will bombard the coast and some of them will go to denmark to aid in finishing off axis navy.

After LC falls, FAF and the 2 RAFs (after hopefully intercepting all 3 LFs during LC attack) will hit brussels port/HQ if spotted, in order to further force intercepts from LFs.

LFs will be badly damaged and one shouldn't be surprised that the LFs will score zero hits sometimes on danish capitol.

This will allow carriers to take free practice lessons hitting the troops in LC, or even kill something in conjunction with naval attacks and french armies.

From now on, UK will try to keep its RAFs operational and to force intercepts/kill off weakened troops and buy corps from time to time to send it into france; frenchies will spam corps or if axis is really slow they can buy HQ (later when defence lines are not thin anymore); French vessels will get disbanded later on to get cash for ground troops; FAF will be disbanded later on when its strength goes down too much (it is not to be reinforced).

Now, I would not recommend this strategy against a polish breakthru. BUT if axis gets bogged down in Poland (3-5 turns) and maybe a bit in denmark the game can turn into a very, very ugly affair for axis.

If you use this strategy against a polish breakthru, axis operate west very fast, get cash very fast and have huge chances to capture Paris very early.

I got creamed by JJR and Zapp who used it on me - I had rolls below average, very late Polands and RAF did heinous damage to my supported LFs (even 5 damage several times in a game).

Pros:

- keep axis cash low;

- allies can score kills early on;

- used in conjunction with a prolonged battle in poland/denmark and some average-to-good odds for allies, it can win games in france or it can delay very very much the capture of Paris and cripple badly the axis army.

-if axis player misplace some pieces early on (like i did in my last game vs Zapp) the consequences can be catastrophic;

-if Axis manage to advance into France (most probably it will), the game turns into a regular ZAS defence for allies but with more chances to succeed due to early axis losses;

-high chances to destroy the axis baltic fleet with certain long term bad consequences for axis (difficulties to protect sweden/finland against russia, allies can interfere with the invasion of norway, etc)

Cons:

- not recommended against a polish breakthru - allies will always hope to delay axis mpps a few turns so they can build up; If performed when axis get poland in turn 2, there are very high chances that the french frontline will collapse in turns 5-6;

- bad rolls exist for allies as well - if allies get bad rolls, well ... axis reaches New York in april

- you need a very calm and experienced allied player - the whole ideea is to not overuse air and not to counterattack on ground just for the sake of counterattacking;

-if Axis get Paris, long term wise the UK will not be very strong - due to continuous air battles they will use most of the cash to reinforce and the tech investment would get postponed;

-UK will not be able to intervene until late in the game and allied player will rely on Russia a bit too much - ok in 1/5/30 you can do that for a certain amount of time

[ May 27, 2005, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Avatar]

Actually HR, I used the UK Navy to attack Denmark too. I think tho you're forgetting that somehow Malta needs replacement. My preferred method is using the badly depleted Fr AF (after a couple intercepts/attacks) to Op to Malta. You don't wanna bother reinforcing later as it's nigh-useless against by-now experienced german AFs, and, you get to keep it after Paris falls anyhow. You could move it to Africa or use it elsewhere for spotting or whatever.

In addition to what HR said, you can do a 'limitied' 'all-in', where you know as the allies you can't stop axis from getting paris, so you do as much damage as possible, and hold on as long as you can, but come a certain point, you evacuate and make a decision not to defend paris anymore. This way, you won't lose as much for UK when it's post-france. Since playing Terif, and he got to Oct '41, I thought that Russian readiness starts rising Mar '41, but it doesn't! It never does! It raises normally in June 22nd. So there's not a huge huge point is losing a lot in france, since you're just that much weaker later on. A middle-point strategy should work well however.

[zappsweden]

I must say, in my games against Rambo and Hellraiser, Allies win more games than they lose using the RAI. RAI is not a game killer, but an advantage IMO.

The best thing about RAI is that it is FLEXIBLE.

It can convert to ZAS (buying Billote) if axis is slow. It can convert into a semi-corps dump if Axis is too fast. It enables a serious LC gambit threat if Axis tries to kitchen sink in Poland (Allies then have 2-3 air, 2 carriers, french armies and UK ship).

In my latest game against Rambo, I took axis for 125!!!

I held Paris until spring 1941. in that game, we have now just started barbarossa. Norway and Sweden still neutral!

[ May 27, 2005, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[zappsweden]

The games I played or played against RAI, Allies have won way over 50% of them.

[ May 29, 2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[hellraiser]

@Avatar - keeping FAF in Paris for 3 turns actually works better - usually it has very good odds vs LF

disband marseille BB and buy a corp in marseille first turn - it will sail to malta; allies do not DoW any minor so Italy won't get in after 3 turns (time needed for corps to disembark in Malta).

Okay, axis can refrain from dow-ing Denmark first turn - but it this case, allies dow Denmark and op move PAF in Malta if they think 3 turns are not enough (it should be enough though).

[ May 27, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[hellraiser]

So far under no-polish breakthru assumption I was not able to capture Paris before oct-nov 40 against myself (tests performed at the office ).

With at least several good odds (which it seems my axis haven't benefited in a very long time , not against myself, not against zapp, not against anyone ) , I think I can get it august-september - but the losses, well ...

Anyway, one should expect heavy losses when confronted with aggro defences.

BTW, another downside of this strategy - allies won't be able to hold egypt/suez much - they commit almost everything in the battle of france - maybe this is no biggie after all.

[ May 27, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[zappsweden]

RAI is flexible, it can start out aggro to stall Axis a while and then convert into more cautious strategy. That means RAI can become STANDARD. Mark my words, I said it first!

[ May 27, 2005, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by zappsweden:

RAI is flexible, it can start out aggro to stall Axis a while and then convert into more cautious strategy. That means RAI can become STANDARD. Mark my words, I said it first!

Yupp, seems to be the case. Not even Yoda can stop it.

[Terif]

Short (and last) comment:

Several players now tried RAI against me and all failed miserable...Allies usually surrendered already 1940 . This is including Rambo who had several tries and retired at the same saturday after he lost all of them...

As I already said in the other thread:

RAI does not work if the axis player is prepared, patient and knows what he does.

Without a doubt it can kill new/unexperienced or impatient axis players but even here it is only a gamble where either Allies or Axis will surrender during the first turns.

Perfect "strategy" for some of the bored players (who don´t want to play a "real" game) here - where strategy doesn´t matter - but an approach that only guarantees a very short game where a victory is worth nothing and usually makes not much fun.

If you want to gamble, go to the casino and play roulette or throw a dice. Same result: you can have a dozen random vicories/defeats within an even shorter time than with RAI .

Summary:

- with RAI you can easily kill new players (very honourable behavior..), but with which strategy a veteran would loose against a newbie anyway...

- against average players it is a pure gamble (go to the casino..)

- vs a good axis player who knows how to react and is prepared, Allies will loose every game when using RAI

[zappsweden]

But the point was, good players are losing again and again and again against RAI. I have beaten Avatar and Hellraiser with it.

Rambo have beaten me with it. Dragonheart lost against the RAI Dalmatian.

In the Summer Heat tourney I have seen more and more ppl using it.

Lets face it, RAI "rule all Oceans". Proof me wrong. :cool:

[ June 08, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[hellraiser]

What should I say ...

Indeed Terif managed to get France both test games we played. Alot of other players fail to do so or if they get it, the timing is badly disrupted and Russia rape them in a matter of 5-10 turns.

If it has potential? Yes. If axis get poland in turn 5 and denmark in 4 there are high chances that will face huge problems against this RAI.

Under polish breakthru and denmark turn 3, RAI is indeed a gamble - axis op west too fast and breakthru in france in turn 4-5.

The flexibility of RAI means it can be adjusted for a mix of uk early air stuff and heavy french corps dumping, if axis manage quick poland/denmark despite no polish breakthru.

To be fully functional, RAI usually needs bids over 220.

Terif got France in September during our first RAI test game - quite a good result vs him. And I did not kill the NA subs (which is very bad - they drain too much cash). This late france was also due to his failure to capture LC in turn 2.

But his axis was not so severely damaged so the game was pretty much open.

The second test game, he raped my allies - broke through immediately in France (game was played under 'LC turn 2 capture' assumption - i wanted to see the RAI at work vs the 'normal' minor capturing sequence), And that's why I said against a turn 3 poland/denmark it is difficult to RAI.

@Terif - RAI can be played more conservative. If axis get good rolls you can 'soften' the approach and dump corps and only use RAF to drain axis' cash.

If axis get bad rolls in poland/denmark - you can really go aggro and put a very serious cash problem to axis.

The strategy has been refined and with only minor luck it provides at least a normal timeframe of french campaign.

IMHO it is not that rolls dependant that the double HQ defence; the risks are far more easily to contain.

Longterm wise, Terif is probably right in the sense that any early uk air strategy eats up a lot of cash - late techs for uk, Sealion risk, etc. But this shortcomings must be carefully weighted against axis troops losses and a possible disruption of post France minor capturing timetable.

[zappsweden]

Hellraiser is spot on, correct. RAI is a more aggressive opening, with options to be either aggressive or super-aggressive.

If General Terif with skill=10 faces General X with skill=7, he would probably headcrack him REGARDLESS of player X using RAI or corps dump. The difference is, with corps dump the head-crack comes in 1942 instead of 1940 but at leist it is a anti-cookie cutter strategy.

RAI is not a "you must attack every turn until u stopped Allies" (that is Rambo's 1.0 version of RAI). Like every other strategy, it matures (certain counter moves provide development and tweaks).

Modern RAI is a strategy that starts super-aggressive with the option to back down and play more conservative if Axis gets Neutrals too early.

Ofcourse Terif should know this too.

[ June 08, 2005, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[jon_j_rambo]

I had Terif beat with RAI! Even with his practice & new Northern Polish attack with Army Group North.

Terif knows RAI works! He has been complaining alot about "you're lucky today" when playing, alot more than usual.

In a recent game, Axis were bogged down, hadn't even touched French soil in June! I didn't know about the 5% liberation goofy readiness for Italy, else, he would have lost. That is a fact.

Terif doesn't want this opening to become common because it's all about luck. If Fritz gets bad luck, RAI will win.

"Those are the facts & they are indisputable" --- Kevin Bacon as the prosecuting attorney in the movie classic, Few Good Men

[Terif]

@Rambo:

Sorry dude, you know it isn´t true . Your Allies had only 7 defending units left when you did your mistake with LC and defence lines were broken anyway. Perhaps Allies would have not surrendered immediately like they did, but France was still in time and Allies out of cash - a lot worser situation than with a corps defence and a sure Allied defeat .

And the next games showed anyway RAI is not really working vs me.

BTW: yes, like many other players too, I don´t like the mini games and these "all or nothing" approaches where usually the player with better luck wins if both players trust in luck and play accordingly . SC is a strategy game and if you don´t like to play strategically but want to gamble, go to the casino instead .

[jon_j_rambo]

@YodaTerif --- Actually, lost my ass at the casino playing blackjack & Texas Holdem'. I am better at sport's betting! I won $1800 with one straight bet & hit a 3-team parlay in game #7 of the San Antonio Spurs & Miami Heat. I also put $300 to $1200 (+395 to be exact) on San Antonio way back in November for the Finals. I about flipped the damn table playing high stakes Texas Holdem' when I lost with triple-5's.

Back to SC, I'm considering coming out of retirement after the HOI-2 affair.

I don't remember the exact number of units in that game, but the Allies were very strong in the air! LF was beaten up & Navy non-existant.

Bottom line, you won, that's all that matters, eh?

[Terif]

Yep - with your luck (too many losses in the mini-game series vs Zapp & Co) it is better not to play in the casino for money .

In our game my navy was in deed toast, but so were yours (2 ships lost, several damaged) . More important: Germany only lost 3 corps until that point. UK still had the usual 2 AFs (vs 5 german ones), but Allies had not enough ground units left to defend the borders...

I warned you to check the report for italian readiness before you took LC again and offered to replay the turn after you did - so RAI surely didn´t fail because of Italy .

However, game is over and won by Axis against RAI - and this was only one of the first games of in the meantime a long series of Axis wins vs RAI against many different players.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yoda finishes his sermon on the RAI.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Yoda finishes his sermon on the RAI.

LOL, you're hilarious when it comes to your comments about Terif with Yoda.

I love them.

[Sombra]

Rambo when you are in Las Vegas.

You can put all your money on one number. Yeah perhaps you will wind =2-3% but the game usally is fast over and still I would put my money on the casino.

If you want to give the allies more possibility why don´t you allow the DOW on mayors though that from time to time the allies at least can try to find a way to fight for the Med.

[jon_j_rambo]

@SomeFritz --- Never been to Vegas (SinCity), no desire either. I play the stock market if anything.

[hellraiser]

Sin...i like this word ...

boobs'n'cash - my favourites