artillery casualties test/are we gamily killing our own wounded?

[CMplayer]

I tried out the following test:

In a confined area an exhausted, conscript

platoon of german infantry starts out

with pinned status. 31 men. They are

packed together in the center of several

tiles full of barbed wire. Around them are

six chuchill crocodiles, a bit farther

back is a cliff boxing them in entirely.

(Though in their present condition they

have no chance of exiting the barbed

wire). The churchills start firing at

them and get immediate surrender. I then

order systematic area fire (with the

flamethrowers) of the entire barbed

wire area. After two turns of this,

all the surrendered squads are

eliminated, without having moved even

a meter. Then I call in artillery onto

the TRP which happens to be on that dead German infantry as well.

15 elite 155 VT spotters empty their

loads, as well as 4 105 VT spotters. The

Churchills remain during the shelling

and continue to area fire the barbed

wire with flamethrowers. Eventually

most of the Churchills are immoble or

otherwise damaged. Then, 6 14" naval gun

spotters completely plaster the area.

(In order to make this work, I had more

German troops at a remote part of the

map, just to prevent an autosurrender.

It was also necessary to shift dates

to get both VT fuses and 14" in the

same scenario)

The final result, of 31 Germans in the

'kill zone', was 31 casualties, of

which _10_ were KIA.

Now I believe that every single wounded

man would have died in that artillery

bombardment. Hence the 'KIA' figure

in the after action screen is just

sheer baloney, some randomly generated

number. Obviously I have taken an

extreme unrealistic situation, but

there are many cases where similar

things happen in real games, for instance

if there is a nasty infantry fight in

some woods, and artillery is called in

shortly after. All those wounded lying

on the ground have not suddenly become

immune to being killed. You might not

call in artillery there right away,

if you know you have wounded there. You

might want to move those guys out

first.

Another case is if there are wounded

in a building which catches on fire.

In that situation you might even see

the enemy helping to move your guys

out.

I would love to see some better modelling

of wounded, medics, stretcher bearers and

perhaps even red-cross marked ambulances

and aid stations available for some

scenarios. Perhaps this isn't anything

for CM, but it would intensify the game

to have to think about and plan

for trying to take care of the guys who go down. Even an abstracted handling of

wounded, which takes into account the

fact that they can be be killed could

be of interest.

This is not just to add realism in the

sense of 'scenery'.

One practical effect this could have on

the game is in campaigns, where some more

lightly wounded would already be ready

for action again the next day. But if

you shell the woods where they are waiting

for treatment, you might not have them

tomorrow.

And in normal battles, the difference

between the number of wounded, and the

number of dead men would be a real

indicator of your skill, instead of

just empty 'bells n whistles'.

regards,

--Rett

.

[This message has been edited by CMplayer (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Gremlin]

Man, you're a sadist

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[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Gremlin:

Man, you're a sadist

You mean to tell me you never bought a

14" spotter, upped his ammo, custom-named

him Lt. Boom, and let him pound the

living bejeezus out of a village

full of conscripts just to watch

the explosion graphics?

Rett

[Michael Dorosh]

Check out the bombardments at the D-Day beaches, or Monte Cassino, or Operation Veritable - and see how many men came out of it ready to fight. I can't think of a single instance in history where a bombardment - no matter how heavy - produced a majority of fatalities among the casualties it inflicted.

You proved something the manual already explained - that the number of KIA is picked randomly. The number of killed to wounded in engagements have always seemed right on the money to me, and I have modelled one or two actual historical battles - the casualty ratios seemed very close to historical. You admit yourself your test was not a fair one.

I think the great thing about CM is that it is HARD to kill infantry. Everytime I see a squad charge at me over open ground, I get scared - the same way the guys doing it for real do - cause there is no guarantee they will all be shot down. It makes for very interesting game play and some tense moments. And I think it is very accurate.

To further your example, as stated before, open ground is seldom billiard table flat, and an infantryman can dig a decent shell scrape in a few minutes with his e tool. You say you had many batteries of 155s laying waste to the area and perhaps every man suffered a direct hit. I don't see that ever occurring in a regular game.

I agree that lightly wounded guys would be interesting, but how do you model their effectiveness. Slow the whole squad down when they are on the move? Presents a lot of problems, and I think it is out of the scope of the game - the battalion commander usually leaves the care of the wounded to his RSM and the Medical Officer and concentrates on fighting the battle. Neither the RSM nor the MO are simulated in the game, and for good reason. What would they do? Just more to worry about and get in the way of fighting the battle.

You make strong cases for historical accuracy, but I personally would find the inclusion of medical units as at best interesting chrome and at worst a pain in the neck when I'm not only ordering three companies of infantry, plus tank support, plus offboard artillery, but now have to keep my ambulances safe from harm and tell wounded men where to collect. A real life commander would delegate those functions to others, and in the game, so do you - by "letting" the computer handle this.

You do make one excellent point - that of shelling areas where you know wounded men to be because the game doesn't model them. Did you know that it was standard German practice to have their own positions pre-registered, and the second they were lost, they bombarded them with mortar and artillery fire as a prelude to their counter-attacks? It seems to me that these preplanned fire missions were not cancelled in order to spare their own wounded. War is hell.

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http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

It also must be pointed out that, in CM's terms at least, there doesn't need to be any differentiation between KIA and wounded. At the game's scale of an hour-long battle or day-long operation, a seriously wounded person will be just as out of the fight as someone who is killed.

-Andrew

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"No, it's not that kind of relationship. We're just friends. We are together all the time, but I never touch her porcelain skin, her soft, red lips, like rose petals from the emperor's bathwater! Bathwater, I tell you, bathwateeeeeeer!"

[tss]

"Upseerin käsikirja", 1940 (Officer's Handbook), has the following rule of thumb on casualties:

The casualties are distributed in the following way:

- 20% KIA

- 15% wounded who can't walk or sit.

- 20% wounded who can't walk but can sit.

- 45% wounded who can walk.

- Tommi

[Pvt. Ryan]

Do you enjoy pulling the wings off flies?

I think CM counts KIA and WIA according to their initial status as a casualty. What I mean is that a wounded soldier can't be killed no matter what you do to him. This is just a guess.

[109 Gustav]

Not all the non KIA casualties are wounded. Others are just so badly panicked that they are completely unable to fight for the rest of the battle, and are therefore of no more use in the battle than a WIA or KIA. "Never get off the boat! Never get off the boat!"

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Not all the non KIA casualties are wounded. Others are just so badly panicked that they are completely unable to fight for the rest of the battle, and are therefore of no more use in the battle than a WIA or KIA. "Never get off the boat! Never get off the boat!"

Extremely good point. Patton slapped those kinds of men, but by 1944 they were considered in most (western Allied) circles as legitimate casualties. The Canadians and British called it "Combat Exhaustion", I believe the Yanks called it "Battle Fatigue." Evacuation to a safe position for a few hours or a day (ie the rest of a Combat Mission game) was the initial prescription.

[chrisl]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Not all the non KIA casualties are wounded. Others are just so badly panicked that they are completely unable to fight for the rest of the battle, and are therefore of no more use in the battle than a WIA or KIA. "Never get off the boat! Never get off the boat!"

Some of them may even be perfectly healthy or very lightly wounded but carrying the seriously wounded from their squad out. The actual status of guys removed from combat is very abstracted.

------------------

"If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk." (stolen from some web page about lutefisk)

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

I tried out the following test:

Perhaps you should get a pet?

------------------

Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties,

Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices!

But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli,

All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother!

We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more,

We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by chrisl:

Some of them may even be perfectly healthy or very lightly wounded but carrying the seriously wounded from their squad out. The actual status of guys removed from combat is very abstracted.

Good point, Chrisl. Some of them would also be escorting prisoners back to the rear or patching up their wounded comrades.

In the 278,510th gamey use for crews, I usually use crews for prisoner escort, though.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[dumrox]

Funny you should mention the prisoner escort thing. I just read Florida Congressman Sam Gibbons account of being dropped in France the night before D-Day. He mentions using glider crews to watch prisoners because they weren't of much use in actual combat. The URL to his story is http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=dday_0004

Here's a quote:

'Everyone was in the firing line except for the two glider pilots and their prisoner. The glider pilots couldn't have done much good anyway because all they had were pistols, and I could see them huddled over by the side of the road about 100 yards north of me. '

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...by 1944 they were considered in most (western Allied) circles as legitimate casualties. The Canadians and British called it "Combat Exhaustion", I believe the Yanks called it "Battle Fatigue." Evacuation to a safe position for a few hours or a day (ie the rest of a Combat Mission game) was the initial prescription.

...and in the USSR this was called "a coward and traitor to the Motherland". A 30 second visit to your local frontline commissar was the last prescription you were ever going to get.

I cant wait till CM2!

------------------

"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Vanir]

CM does not calculate KIA vs wounded until the battle is over. All casualties are the same until the battle ends and then the game just randomly assigns a percentage of the casualties as KIA and the rest as wounded. I don't see a problem with this as there is no real practical difference between the two for game purposes.

As far as ambulances and aid stations and the Red Cross, you will probably see those about the same time BTS puts cows into the game as they would both add about the same amount of realism IMO.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Vanir:

CM does not calculate KIA vs wounded until the battle is over. All casualties are the same until the battle ends and then the game just randomly assigns a percentage of the casualties as KIA and the rest as wounded. I don't see a problem with this as there is no real practical difference between the two for game purposes.

As far as ambulances and aid stations and the Red Cross, you will probably see those about the same time BTS puts cows into the game as they would both add about the same amount of realism IMO.

Hey, Muzzle Velocity had cows! They also had trains and civilian cars you could shoot up and civvie girls you could run over. Not exactly the most realistic thing you ever saw...

...what was my point again?

[Guest TomServo]

they had those damn planes w/ machine guns that could blow up a tank too! amazing stuff. MV was fun times.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Mirage2k:

It also must be pointed out that, in CM's terms at least, there doesn't need to be any differentiation between KIA and wounded. At the game's scale of an hour-long battle or day-long operation, a seriously wounded person will be just as out of the fight as someone who is killed.

-Andrew

Sure, but then it is really cheesy to

get this box at the end which says

31 casualties (10 KIA). It's just

crud. If they are going to tell you

how many are KIA then they should

track it, at make it possible for

wounded to be KIA'd later. Even

without the medics and aid stations,

etc. For example, wounded in a house

which catches fire might have a much

higher chance of being KIA'd than

someone nicked by MG fire at 1000 meters

in an open field who remains behind

while the action shifts forward.

regards,

--Rett

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

...wounded in a house

which catches fire might have a much

higher chance of being KIA'd than

someone nicked by MG fire at 1000 meters

in an open field who remains behind

while the action shifts forward.

regards,

--Rett

Explain why. A bullet can kill you just as dead as fire can. I would think bullets are actually more lethal than a burning building.

You've made the point already that some situations are seemingly more lethal. But you haven't given a convincing reason why this should be tracked in the game. What possible difference would it have to the game play or outcome of a scenario?

[Sergeant Huang]

CMplayer :

I see your point, but take my advice,

it is just a game, you can not expect

the BTS model it as the real war.

Sometimes, you have to forget the trivia

and foucs on the primary issue.

------------------

Staff Sgt. Huang

I LOVE my country, but my

government suc*s.

[Gremlin]

Regarding cows, actually that would be quite realistic in CM. A number of books (including eyewitness reports) make note of the countless dead, reeking cows from the D-Day bombardments. Apparently the smell was really hard to live with in summer.

***

Anyone have any credible sources about casualty figures from arty in WWII? TIA

------------------

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Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Explain why. A bullet can kill you just as dead as fire can. I would think bullets are actually more lethal than a burning building.

I'm talking about men who are wounded,

have a hard time moving, and then

find themselves trapped in a burning

house. First they get wounded, then

they may die. A guy lying wounded in

a field, won't be much of a target

once the action moves forward because

the enemy is too busy engaging more

threatening targets. Of course there

can be exceptions, but I'm talking

in general terms.

You've made the point already that some situations are seemingly more lethal. But you haven't given a convincing reason why this should be tracked in the game. What possible difference would it have to the game play or outcome of a scenario?

My only point is that it is silly to get

a result at the end telling you how many

were KIA, if the game doesn't even make

an attempt to determine this. It's

just sheer baloney.

regards,

--Rett

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Sergeant Huang:

CMplayer :

I see your point, but take my advice,

it is just a game, you can not expect

the BTS model it as the real war.

Sometimes, you have to forget the trivia

and foucs on the primary issue.

Okay, the primary issue. What I _really_

want to see modelled is field kitchens.

The quality of your field kitchen ought

to have an effect on morale, also, guys

ought to be able to go back and get

some chow once in a while. And if you

use the dead cows in the fields for

hamburgers there are a lot of food

poisoning issues which could come into

the game (very realistic as well)

regards,

--Rett

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

And if you

use the dead cows in the fields for

hamburgers there are a lot of food

poisoning issues which could come into

the game (very realistic as well)

The cafeteria at my college has already modeled this, so I'm sure BTS could do it. Cheaper that way, and the only students (like me) who eat there couldn't afford good food anyway, so we can't complain.

I have to agree with Michael, the number of KIAs versus WIAs may be arbitrary, but it has no effect whatsoever on gameplay. Besides, there is nothing at all that you could do to change the outcome, so why bother simulating it?

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

The cafeteria at my college has already modeled this, so I'm sure BTS could do it. Cheaper that way, and the only students (like me) who eat there couldn't afford good food anyway, so we can't complain.

I have to agree with Michael, the number of KIAs versus WIAs may be arbitrary, but it has no effect whatsoever on gameplay. Besides, there is nothing at all that you could do to change the outcome, so why bother simulating it?

Well it could have an effect on gameplay.

If you enjoy the planning stage of

a battle then you might enjoy setting

up assembly areas, and evac routes.

If you have wounded in an area you *might*

choose not to use artillery on that

area, if they can subsequently be KIA'd.

If you observe a marked enemy medical

you *might* choose not to direct fire

there. (could be a house or in the open)

Or you might shoot the medics first, I

don't know.

There are other things, but I just wanted

to reiterate the point I made before that

this is not just for 'look and feel' but

that it does indeed have to do with

gameplay issues.

regards,

--Rett

[This message has been edited by CMplayer (edited 01-29-2001).]