Stalingrad and bioweapons: any info?

[Sig]

Hello,

just finished Ken Alibek's "Biohazard" (Delta Book, publisher: Dell Publishing, April 2000, ISBN 0-385-33496-6) which relates his career as an actor of significant importance in the soviet bioweapon program from his beginning as a student in medicine to his defection to the US.

What attracted my attention was his reference (page 30 of the book) to the possible use of tularemia(*) against the Germans panzer troops on the Volga during late summer 1942. Statistically, he claims, the number of natural cases in Soviet Union was around ten thousand in 41. In the year of Stalingrad, the number soared to more than one hundred thousand in the Volga region, coming back to normal in 43. Despite the closeness of the front lines, most of the victims seemed by far to have been the Germans. Furthermore, 70 percent of the victims came down with the pneumonic form of the disease, a probable consequences of a purposeful dissemination. To give more weight to this supposition, Alibek learned years later, that a secret weapon facility was located in Kirov and had developped a tularemia weapon in 41.

On page 36 of his book, Alibek writes also about an outbrake of Q fever among the Germans in Crimea in 43. He says he was unable to investigate further, but that Q fever was practically unheard of in Russia prior to that outbrake.

Since we are starting to talk about the Great Patriotic War or War in the East or whatever you want to call it, does any of you, history grogs, have any information about possible bioweapon use during WWII, especially on the east front?

Some precisions:

Alibek gives no clear references for his sources. Perhaps he doesn't remember (his discovery was in 73 whene he was at the Tomsk Medical Institute). He just said he found the inforamtion when he was reading a twenty-five-volume History of Soviet Military Medicine in the Great Patriotic War: 1941-1945, and was also reading some scientific journals from this period.

Thanks for feedback.

Sig

(*)Debilitiating illness. Highly infection, but almost never spreads directly from one person to another. Chills, nausea, headaches, fever. Untreated, lasts form 2 to 4 weeks, but can continue for months. Lethal in 30% of untreated cases.

[Scipio]

This is the first time I heard about it.

My only informations about bioweapons in WWII was Churchills plan to bomb Germany with Anthrax, but war was over before they start - thanx god, cause I'm German :eek: !

[Guest ckoharik]

Another possible spin on this. Could it be that there was a higher percentage of Germans contracting these diseases because they possibly did not have as much immunity to it as the locals did? Of course, the conditions were ripe for mass dissemination of biological contaminants during these periods but that doesn't necessarily mean the Soviets intentionally spread them. That course might have backfired in a very bad way for them.

[Skipper]

Afaik, no chemical or bio weapon was used by any side on the Eastern front, although germans at some stage were seriously preparing to use some chemical stuff. Iirc, it was called Zyclon-B or some such. They even stockpiled of arty shells with this agent somewhere within Russia. Which has become known to the soviet intelligence. Whatever was the reason, the plans were withdrawn and the shells transported back to Germany. The source where I read this story was about soviet chemical warfare effort, particularly design and mass production of effective gas masks.

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skipper:

Afaik, no chemical or bio weapon was used by any side on the Eastern front, although germans at some stage were seriously preparing to use some chemical stuff. Iirc, it was called Zyclon-B or some such. They even stockpiled of arty shells with this agent somewhere within Russia. Which has become known to the soviet intelligence. Whatever was the reason, the plans were withdrawn and the shells transported back to Germany. The source where I read this story was about soviet chemical warfare effort, particularly design and mass production of effective gas masks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zyklon-B was used in Auschwitz. The Germans had stockpils of Talbun, Phosgen and Lost(mustard gas), but never really planned to use them - Hitler personal order, as far as I know.

[Blackcat]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

This is the first time I heard about it.

My only informations about bioweapons in WWII was Churchills plan to bomb Germany with Anthrax, but war was over before they start - thanx god, cause I'm German :eek: !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Do you have a source for this?

Cheers

[Blenheim]

With chemical weapons happened something similar to nukes... Nobody used them, because everybody was too afraid of the counteratack. Hitler was really against its use probably due to his WW I memories. Gas attacks were particulary terrifying, and he had images of mustard gas bombs in Berlin in his mind....

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackcat:

Really? Do you have a source for this?

Cheers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a page. Read the first passage.

Info

And here's a link to that book at Amazon.

Amazon

[ 04-15-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Sig]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

This is the first time I heard about it.

My only informations about bioweapons in WWII was Churchills plan to bomb Germany with Anthrax, but war was over before they start - thanx god, cause I'm German :eek: !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is true that Great Britain researched extensively anthrax (a truly horrible weapon with very high lethality when "properly"(...) used) with the objective to weaponise it. IIRC an island somewhere north of Great Britain was heavily contaminated with anthrax spores and it is only very recently that people where allowed to come back. Sorry, I don't remember the name of this island.

According to Alibek's book, official start of a bioweapon programm in USSR was 1928 when the "Revolutionary Military Council signed a decree ordering the transformation of typhus into a battlefield weapon" (quote from p33).

Sig

[Sig]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blenheim:

With chemical weapons happened something similar to nukes... Nobody used them, because everybody was too afraid of the counteratack. Hitler was really against its use probably due to his WW I memories. Gas attacks were particulary terrifying, and he had images of mustard gas bombs in Berlin in his mind....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Careful: bioweapons are

not at all similar to chemical weapons. First of all they reproduce!! Secondly there is far less "track record" (if I dare say so) meaning by that: nobody has really experienced the horror of their use (to the contrary of chemical weapons during WWI), thereby less inhibition I fear.

Another thing which is to remember: no need to kill with 100% efficacy, just make people sick and overload the health system of the target army/society.

The only thing which could have helped preventing the use on a large scale of such a weapon is the lack of control if the disease is contagious: it could very well hit your own people, especially in the case were the front lines are close.

In the exemple of Stalingrad Alibek writes in the book (p30) that within a week of the initial German outbrake, thousands of Russian soldiers and civilians living in the Volga region came down with tularemia, prompting the Soviet high command to rush ten mobile military hospitals into the area.

And just to add to the bioweapon use during WWII: don't forget the infamous Water Purification Unit 731 in Manchuria, which conducted Japan's bioweapon program. They made horrible experiments on POW's (incl. US, British and Commenwealth prisoners) to test various germs. IIRC, their commander, LtGen. Shiro Ishii was hired by the US at the end of the war... This clone of Dr Mengele was probably too precious to be hanged...

Sig

[Skipper]

Maybe it was not Zyclon - i dont remember the name of the stuff. But something was moved inside Russia.

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skipper:

Maybe it was not Zyclon - i dont remember the name of the stuff. But something was moved inside Russia.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sarin?

[Jonah]

Hey All,

A great reference for Biowar in WW2 and beyond is "The Biology of Doom" by Ed Regis (Henry Hol and Company, ISBN 0-8050-5764-1). The book covers the US, Canada, Brits and Japan. There is little or no mention of German and Soviet efforts.

Sig, The island the Brits tested Anthrax on in 1942 is Gruinard Island (in Scotland actually). The island was decontaminated in 1986 and declared free of anthrax spores in 1990.

BTW, although the book mentions that the US produced a quantity of anthrax bombs for the Brits, there is no mention of plans for use of bio weapons by British forces.

If anyone wants info on anthrax drop me a line. I spent most of last summer working on an anthrax outbreak in a wild buffalo herd in a National Park in northern Canada....and I learned a fair bit about the disease as a result.....

[Sig]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jonah:

Sig, The island the Brits tested Anthrax on in 1942 is Gruinard Island (in Scotland actually). The island was decontaminated in 1986 and declared free of anthrax spores in 1990.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info Jonah. Personally I would be very reluctant to visit such an island. Probably an ill-founded fear. After all you seem to have survived without harm .

Sig

[ 04-16-2001: Message edited by: Sig ]

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig:

Careful: <snip> Secondly there is far less "track record" (if I dare say so) meaning by that: nobody has really experienced the horror of their use (to the contrary of chemical weapons during WWI), thereby less inhibition I fear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While you are technically correct, in modern terms, Biological warfare has been conducted for thousands of years. A favorite tactic in teh thirty years war, the barbarian invasions, and many other ancient conflicts was to catapult diseased, dead bodies over a city wall during sieges. While there certainly was a desire to impact the enemy's morale with this tactic, there was also a desire to spread teh disease among the defenders, to make them too sick to continue the fight. Often times, dead bodies or dead animals were placed in water supplies to poison the water.

Everything old is new again, eh?

MrSpkr

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

Here's a page. Read the first passage.

Info

And here's a link to that book at Amazon.

Amazon

[ 04-15-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I looked at your sources. With all due respect, these "sources" appear to be nothing more than the extremely paranoid portions of the far, far, far right wing. The main page on the sprintmail site talks about the CIA trying to brainwash kids into "turning in their parents" (whatever that means) and such; the Amazon book is no longer in print. The one review, however, mentions that the authors describe how the US government conducted bio-war on its own citizens using black helicopters, etc., yadda yadda yadda and that all the books sent to his local bookstore had been purchased the day before by "men in bleck suits."

Not very authoritative, I would say.

MrSpkr

[Sig]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

While you are technically correct, in modern terms, Biological warfare has been conducted for thousands of years. A favorite tactic in teh thirty years war, the barbarian invasions, and many other ancient conflicts was to catapult diseased, dead bodies over a city wall during sieges. While there certainly was a desire to impact the enemy's morale with this tactic, there was also a desire to spread teh disease among the defenders, to make them too sick to continue the fight. Often times, dead bodies or dead animals were placed in water supplies to poison the water.

Everything old is new again, eh?

MrSpkr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Partially agree with you. The fact that bioweapons have been used during History is perfectly true.

However, the main difference and a critical one is that scientific research is now applied to the problem and specific weapons can be designed. Modern genetic engineering techniques only make things worst...

I believe (but it's only a supposition) that the only inhibition toward the use of bioweapons during the bleakest hours (from the soviet point of view) of Barbarossa would have been their unreliability, and perhaps also a lack of developpement in the existing program (see previous posts). When you are cornered, surrounded by ennemies (again, USSR perspective in the 20-40ies), it must be tempting to use every weapon at hand.

Today, I would be more pessimistic: as I said, modern biology will soon or later allow the design of "smart" bioweapons, meaning you could use them with little risk to yourself. So falls on inhibition! Remains only the political cost. And here comes the "track record": no significant modern use, meaning no pictures to stir the public opinion, meaning no concern in the population and no political pression to increase control and ban.

OK, OK, I darken a bit the things (I hope). Was only to point out that it's not because soldiers usually kill their ennemy by lead poisoning, that futur wars have to follow this model. Unfortunatly for civilians.

Sig

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I looked at your sources. With all due respect, these "sources" appear to be nothing more than the extremely paranoid portions of the far, far, far right wing. The main page on the sprintmail site talks about the CIA trying to brainwash kids into "turning in their parents" (whatever that means) and such; the Amazon book is no longer in print. The one review, however, mentions that the authors describe how the US government conducted bio-war on its own citizens using black helicopters, etc., yadda yadda yadda and that all the books sent to his local bookstore had been purchased the day before by "men in bleck suits."

Not very authoritative, I would say.

MrSpkr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I made only a quick search in the net. Make it better if you are not contented.