Smaller tiles in CMX2?

[poppy]

Not a new thread exactly but may be a new slant. The "game as is" is an excellent game ,all three versions. Some of the things that could be made better vs changed. My first request would be smaller tiles. Then we could have single lane dirt roads with optional terrain ditating the path of the road,narrow streams and gullys, same game please no change to play mode. poppy

[flamingknives]

If the tiles are smaller, it'll take longer to create a map. There's a few comments regarding tiles and CMX2 in the pc.ign article, as well as the thread on the same in the General Forum.

[poppy]

Thanks flamingknives for your reply. I agree it will take longer to creat a map. It would also make it possible to more accuratly recreate terrain. Picture a creek instead of a river a gully instead of a canynon. A roadside ditch which isnt possible now. Hopefully CMX2 will enable us map grogs to do these things. I look forward to CMX2 with the hope that this is one of the things that BF will include. And Please Keep The Game Play The Same. poppy

[Gpig]

Wouldn't it be great if you could have large AND small tiles.

Like, you could subdivide a large tile to put more detailed terrain features where you wanted them. But for large parts of your map you could retain large scale tiles.

???

Gpig

[poppy]

Hello Gpig," Wouldn't it be great if you could have large AND small tiles."

Why not? If BF can do it. poppy

[Gpig]

I feel buoyed by your positive attitude.

Thanks,

Gpig

[poppy]

Hello Gpig I think that sometimes games are changed for the "worse" not the better. CMBO CMBB and CMAK are all "one of a kind" in my experience are the only games that I play on a continual basis. "Hidden and Dangerous" is an excellent game in my opinion but "Hidden and Dangerous 2" although it had better graphics and is also an excellent game did not improve on the original for playability and maybe lost a little bit. Hopfully CMX2 will avoid this. Thanks again Gpig hope I didnt get to negative. poppy

[Hans]

yes the follow on to successful games sometimes are horrible

I live in fear that Charles will create an improvement I don't like

Then I will have to find a new hobby!

[Joachim]

Big tiles? Where's the problem? We already have big and very big tiles. The very big tile is the 5x5 tiles brush.

So for scenario design, just allow a 1x1, 4x4 and a 20x20 brush with 5m*5m tiles. (Or even smaller tiles and more brushes)

3D effects might be a bit more complicated than the scenario editor.

Gruß

Joachim

[Sergei]

Joachim, I don't think that you really can understand the issue if you're not a scenario designer. The 5x5 brush is not a tile, for the sake of all that is good. It is a big brush. Nice for filling spaces, but you'll still be needing to define the edges. Why would a smaller tile size even be needed if it wouldn't be used? I personally am of the type that spends forever adding last finishing touches to maps, so yes, it would take more time.

Another issue is the map editor. You can't really make the tiles any smaller than they are now, so you'll end up having 4 times less area visible in the window.

All in all, I don't think that the people who call for smaller tiles really know what they're asking for. Besides, getting rid of tiles altogether, at least for some terrain features, would be far more useful. I have already suggested before that buildings could be freely placeable and rotatable objects, and that you could draw roads (and hedges, walls, forest paths) as vectors.

[Joachim]

Sergei,

my point is that it is possible to create scenarios with maps of the same quality as it is now if you have say 5m tiles but a standard 4x4 tile brush. The procedure would be exactly the same for exactly the same quality maps as now - you would effectively get 20m tiles (maybe with different slopes on steep height changes) if you were designing maps the same quality as now.

Your point is that a scenario designer with some self esteem would of course use the 5m tiles and try to create the best maps possible.

While I fully understand your point (I made some scens though I have only one published at TPG right now) I don't want an improvement wasted cause the pressure on scenario designers to create better maps would mount once the improvement is available.

If no other improvements by BFC to the map editor were made, I guess Pyewacket or the author of mapping mission (sorry, bad memory for names) would create some nice tools that would help designers (just like mapping mission now can do roads on its own without carefully selecting roads) with some of the work. Of course there would be the need for some additional handywork.

But let's face it: With tiles 1/16th of what they are now, only a few maps will need 16 times more work. Most areas - like woods, fields and such - would take exactly the same amount of time while roads, rivers, walls, hedges or wood edges - which usually make up less than 10% of the map - would need more work.

The designers would spend double the amount of time on maps. But what would be the reward for the crowd? I guess it would be worth it.

Gruß

Joachim

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Joachim:

The designers would spend double the amount of time on maps. But what would be the reward for the crowd? I guess it would be worth it.

But why, oh why? As you say, it doesn't really matter if a forest consists of 20m tiles or 5m tiles. So what do we need the 5m tiles for?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Joachim:

If no other improvements by BFC to the map editor were made, I guess Pyewacket or the author of mapping mission (sorry, bad memory for names) would create some nice tools that would help designers (just like mapping mission now can do roads on its own without carefully selecting roads) with some of the work. Of course there would be the need for some additional handywork.

The point about the map editor is that because it is tile based, there is a practical minimum size for a tile. Something that is easy to recognize and to click on. You just can't make the squares smaller than they are right now. But if you keep their size in the editor the same but change from 20m to 5m grid, it means that only a small portion of a map can fit onto the screen - something like 300x200 metres. And no 3rd party program would help with it, only a bigger monitor so that you could use a higher resolution.

I think everyone who supports the idea of smaller tiles must be a communist and a terrorist supporter. :mad:

[YankeeDog]

So why not allow a zoom function in the map editor so those with smaller monitors can move in and out as they create maps?

There's lots of stuff I'd like to see in the new map editor, such as the ability to cut and paste whole sections of terrain, the ability to do at least limited editing while in 3D mode, etc.

Ultimately, though, rather than smaller actual tiles, it might be more useful to divorce certain map features from the tile system.

I'm not sure how possible it is from a programming viewpoint, but it would be great to be able to free place roads, fences, buildings, etc. on top of the tile.

This would also mean that the editor would no longer have to include a million different kinds of road & fence etc tiles to cover all possible directions and junctions. You'd just draw the roads where you wanted them much like you do in a painting program. This would also allow designers to create more realistic rural villages, where buildings face every which way, rather than strictly along 45 degree angles.

Combine this with more natural transitions between terrain types and elevations between tiles (something already promised in the ign article), and I think you'd end up with damn good looking maps.

Here's hoping!

Cheers,

YD

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Sergei:

The point about the map editor is that because it is tile based, there is a practical minimum size for a tile. Something that is easy to recognize and to click on. You just can't make the squares smaller than they are right now. But if you keep their size in the editor the same but change from 20m to 5m grid, it means that only a small portion of a map can fit onto the screen - something like 300x200 metres. And no 3rd party program would help with it, only a bigger monitor so that you could use a higher resolution.

I think everyone who supports the idea of smaller tiles must be a communist and a terrorist supporter. :mad:

As there are other ways to do edit maps than it is now, I guess the guys at BFC will present us with something amazing.

If you have only forest, you don't need 5m tiles and you don't need to zoom in. But the prospect of designing maps on the 4*3m screen of a video beamer in my new 70qm living room.... BFC - if you've got the 5m tiles, I've got the living room. Even better - 4x3m hi-res tiles with a :cool: ultra-zoom function.

Gruß

Joachim

I'm a communist at heart - glad I've got a brain, too.

[MikeyD]

From the CMX2-related interview given recently it sounds like the mechanics of the terrain features are pretty well worked out. Still tiles but the look will be more seamless. Still different terrain types but they'll blend more smoothly. Still grass but displayed as an effect rather than a doodad. I can't recall any word on tile size, though, Sounds like 'obvious' CM tile features we're used to will be a thing of the past. Charles has stated on several occassions that a good propotion of our CM1-based suggestions for improving the engine will be moot with CMX2.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Ultimately, though, rather than smaller actual tiles, it might be more useful to divorce certain map features from the tile system.

My point exactly! You, Sir, are a pure-hearted patriot and a defender of democracy!

[Runyan99]

Perhaps the new CM engine will not use 'tiles' at all.

We do need increased detail (fidelity?) on the battlefield, especially in towns and cities.

Whether that is done with smaller tiles or free-form object placement, I don't really care.

As a scenario designer, what we also need are BETTER TOOLS FOR PAINTING MAPS. The current system of clicking on each and every tile to choose terrain and elevation is too laborious. We need tools which allow us to cut and paste, paint terrain features in broad strokes, copy terrain, grab terrain to raise or lower elevations, generate random sections of terrain, auto-generate items like rivers and hills, etc.

I want a powerful map editor. Give me tools, not just squares to fill in.

Thanks!

[poppy]

Will there be a map editor in CMX2? :eek: poppy