"Do Not Push"

[Bruno Weiss]

I just witnessed something I hadn't seen in all this time with CM, and which brings up a couple of questions.

In a pouring down rain battle I attempted to move two 251/9's through an opening between two woods areas. Both vehicles were timed so there wouldn't be a traffic problem. As I'm watching the movie return from my opponent, I see the first 251/9 bog down. Now, I've seen vehicles run into other vehicles in traffic conjestions, but they have always just stopped after the graphic shows them a little ways into the other .bmp file.

But, in this instance, the second 251/9 pulls up behind the first bogged 251/9, and literally pushes it out of the way. For a moment there, I thought it was going to push it out of the bog. Never mind for a moment that the first 251/9 bogged where the second one not only passes over without a hitch, but actually pushes the first 251/9 through the presupposed mud, and out of its way.

Bringing up I guess two questions. First, what is it inherent to vehicles and not the terrain condition itself that if all other things being equal, one vehicle bogs where a second duplicate vehicle passes right over? And, secondly then would it actually be possible for a second vehicle to push the first and bogged vehicle out of the bog situation?

Anyone seen any of this happen?

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

First, what is it inherent to vehicles and not the terrain condition itself that if all other things being equal, one vehicle bogs where a second duplicate vehicle passes right over? . . .Anyone seen any of this happen?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive had a number of lighter vehicles bog down in mud on a dirt road, be pushed off by a tank, and then have the same type of vehicle pass over the terrain. isnt bogging down an event that happens randomly determined by ground pressure, crew experience, and ground conditions? not necesarily WHERE exactly the bog occured before?

[Pzman]

I can answer question number two. I have done it. I pushed a PzIV out of a bogged state with anther PzIV but that was in damp.

[Bruno Weiss]

Hmm, I did not know one could do that. Maybe a little risky since there seems to be a random roll of the dice aspect to bogging, and the second vehicle I guess might very well bog also, but the idea of moving a MarkIV up behind the now caught 251/9 and pushing it out of the bog is appealing. Thought the second 251/9 shoved the first and bogged unit over to the left where there is now a nice fat woods area directly under its rear so I can't get another vehicle behind it. (At this point ofcourse, I'm adding the ability for vehicles to hitch up and tow as a priority to my CM2 wish list).

Could push it to the side I guess, hehe like a big bulldozer blade. Hmm, wonder if CM2 will include backhoes. Well, I guess any hoes would do but,... Er ah, yes well back to the thunderstorm. Glad to hear it is at least possible to push something out of a bog.

Up until now, I've bogged tanks on many an occasion, but each and every time, I was able to unbog the thing by stopping it, reversing it, and within two turns the vehicle has always backed out of the bog. (There were some independent lab tests performed the results of which said this was not a factor). However, it has worked consistently for me. On this occasion though, the second halftrack has managed to push the first one over into a position where I cannot reverse it to unbog it.

Definately need a tow option though. Thanks guys for the input.

[L.Tankersley]

Hmmm, here's a question -- can you push a vehicle into terrain it couldn't enter on its own (e.g. woods or rough)? And can you push a vehicle that is _not_ bogged/immobilized? If the answer to both questions is yes, then you might be able to push a vehicle into an obstruction. I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to do this other than for the novelty value; I don't _think_ exposure ratings matter for shots against armor (but I could be wrong).

[Battlefront.com]

Bogging is randomly determined based on a host of variables unique to each vehicle (especially ground pressure). If one vehicle bogs down in a particular spot, that doesn't affect the game in any way besides what happens to that one vehicle. An abstraction, for sure, but not THAT abstract. I live in a place where vehicles "bog" all the time. It is entirely possible for one vehicle to get stuck and another one to move past it without getting stuf. Perhaps the 2nd vehicle gets a little further and then bogs down, or perhaps the terrain gets a little better and doesn't.

Once a vehicle is Immobilized it can not be recovered at all. This implies that the vehicle has either got itself so stuck that it would take a deliberate, and time consuming, recover OR that some sort of mechanical problem happened while trying to extract itself (i.e. throwing a track, breaking a tierod, etc.).

I don't think it is possible to unbog a non-immobilized vehicle. What might have happened is that it was pushed and then, thanks to good luck, became unbogged instead of immobilized. In other words, if it had been left alone it would have gotten out without being pushed.

Again... all this stuff is abstracted, therefore it isn't perfect.

Steve

P.S. One movement order does not help unbog a vehicle any more than another. Since going forward might be the better option than back, we decided to just leave it generic. Your virtual driver makes the call

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]

[dragonwagon]

I have seen tanks move other vehicles out of way on road and open ground dry (even burning one's) but never a bogged on eas in borris's encounter. But I suppose it could be possible , maybe bogged also just means broken down.......

[Pzman]

Bogged is not at all brocken down. That is not modled at all in CM. In other words its beyond its scope.

[Mark IV]

You can still push an Immobilized vehicle with another vehicle, a little. It stays immobilized, but changes position somewhat. If you Immobilize just short of a ridge, you might be able to nudge it into a hull-down view over the ridge, or through some trees... of course, then you risk bogging the second vehicle.

[imported_Wildman]

You most certainly can. Right now in a game, I have a Lynx that was immobilized by artillery behind a house. Well since I want it suppress some infantry, I'm using a 250/1 to push it out from behind the house.

Guess what! It worked and now is happily chewing up infantry.

Right Speedy?

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Right now in a game, I have a Lynx that was immobilized by artillery behind a house. Well since I want it suppress some infantry, I'm using a 250/1 to push it out from behind the house.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you have time, maybe your crew can flag down a passerby and they can help you change your track? the civi's in the town might be helpful

[Bog]

I have to enter this thread, it wouldn't be right if I didn't input something.

Wildman, are you sure that'll work? I believe Lynx's weigh more than the SPW 251 halftracks, so I don't think you'll be able to push it. But, it might work.

[imported_Wildman]

Bog,

Gaaaranteeedd, or your money back!

Make a winter scenario and drive around any tank until it bogs. Then bring another and try to push, it will work. As a matter of fact, I'll send you the movie file to look for yourself.

[Battlefront.com]

Bog,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wildman, are you sure that'll work? I believe Lynx's weigh more than the SPW 251 halftracks, so I don't think you'll be able to push it. But, it might work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Wildman states, it will work even though it really shouldn't. We were not able to program in the rather difficult logic for the AI (Tac and Strat) to know what it can push with what, how, and to what degree of safety. So we had to simplify things and simply have all vehicles be able to push each other. However, we were able to make the speed of pushing depending on relative weight of each vehicle. So a Jeep can push a King Tiger, but oooooooooo so slowly and with a high chance of bogging down itself

Steve

[Bruno Weiss]

Thanks Steve for the info, and explanations. Dog gone, where else but Battlefront would this happen. "Ya call the Vatican and the Pope answers!"

Didn't mean anything critical by the statements on random aspect of bogging by the way. There are many random factors in the game as in real life, so it seems to me to simply mimic reality as best as can be done.

Was also sorta kidding about the hitch and tow option. Might be possible I guess, but in a 30 minute battle I'm not sure how realistic it would be that a vehicle resource would be detoured to haul out yet another crippled/bogged counterpart. I'm sure it happened on occasion, but in the space of 30 minutes how common would it be? Dunno meself, leave that thought up to you and Charles.

This is an interesting concept however, and one as I said that I was caught off guard on. Just didn't know it was possible. In this instance, the second 251/9 did infact push the first bogged 251/9 partially into a woods area, well at least where its rear is in the woods, but not registered as such on the interface.

Ofcourse if I'd known that the first unit was going to bog, and then also known it could be pushed, I'd have angled the second unit to push it straight, (as Rommel must have wondered, "Had I only known"). As it happened however, the second vehicle was heading slightly to the right of the first bogged vehicle, and therefore pushed it at a leftward angle out of the way and into a woods area. Now, the problem is I can't use my usual method of unbogging and simply back it straight out of the bog. I'm left with banking on the fact that it was moved up next to an embankment, where, hopefully it can get some traction. Not sure how much if at all that plays into it (the AI programming that is), but its worth a try I guess. The intricate nuances of this game, even now after playing it intensely for nearly a year, never cease to amaze me.

Actually the fellow who asked if it were possible to push a vehicle into a otherwise non-accessible area has an idea me thinks. The reason one might want to as he asked, is as I reason anyway, if a weapon were bogged anyhow, and if it had any decent LOS, and could then be pushed into a woods, (if, if, if), then would it not be a nicely hidden gun (providing it had one), where otherwise one could not hide it? That's assuming one cannot unbog the thing since mobility IMO is more valuable than short term stealth.

Things to ponder in the ever expanding world of CM.

Great CM2 preview for anyone that hasn't seen it yet at:

CG Online

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Bruno,

When we designed the bogging/unbogging system we placed "pushing" higher up on the list than anything else. This was underscored during the old Alpha PBEM game when Fionn had a HT knocked out on a wooded road. He couldn't move any of his other vehicles out of that area since it was the only road to the battlefield. This was because we hadn't yet coded up "pushing"

The problem Fionn experienced underscored how important, escential even, that pushing code get in there. But as I said above, unfortunately we didn't have the time to code up the AI to use the "correct" method for modeling this feature. So we had to go abstract. This does, unfortunately, open the door to a gamey push or two, but on balance it is not a problem (no pushing would be a HUGE problem though ).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now, the problem is I can't use my usual method of unbogging and simply back it straight out of the bog. I'm left with banking on the fact that it was moved up next to an embankment, where, hopefully it can get some traction. Not sure how much if at all that plays into it (the AI programming that is), but its worth a try I guess. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The chance of unbogging is just a simple calculation based on vehicle floatation (psi), terrain, and random chance. I might have missed a minor factor or two, but that is the basics. In theory you have a better chance of unbogging if the vehicle is pushed onto better terrain (slope/elevation does not count), but once Immobilized there is no chance of getting it unstuck.

In CMBB driver experience is also factored in, giving better drivers a greater chance of avoiding bogging in the first place, or higher chance of unbogging if stuck.

Steve

[PiggDogg]

Steve,

Why are you answering these posts? Get back working on CM2!!!!!!!! Lol !!!!!

Just kidding. Where do you get the time to work on CM2 & then follow these post? When do you sleep?

Thanks for CM. I have been playing wargames since 1958 (Avalon Hill) & CMBO may not be perfect, but it sure is the best thing since (and, of course, it is way better than) Tactics II.

Now, go to bed so you can work on CM2 tomorrow.

Cheers, Richard