Scipio Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 AFAIK, only a few guns could be moved by the crew without transport, like the 3.7cm and 5cm PAK, or the small 7.5 infantry gun and mortars. The 7.5-Pak40 for example weighted 1.5 ton, without the ammo. The crew was not able to move it - in CM it is. Then the crew must transport all the ammo, too. Is it only to allow the gun to embark? Wouldn't it make more sense to order the vehicel to lade the gun? Then I have noticed that the crew can transport the gun over long distances, but never getting tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodimzew Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Yes you're right, the Pak40 was not intended to be transported without a kind of tractor. Even with a tractor, it was evaluated to be too heavy for towed transportation in russian heavy terrain during winter and spring. Nevertheless, a gun can (and must) be moved, even if it weights 1.5 tons. At least it should be able to change position over a limited distance, lets say 100m. But it should take time because normally the crew has to get the gun to the position, furthermore they should take the ammunition and other stuff (repair kits) to the new position. Several walkings between positions are necessary. But i think these different movements are already represented by the slow movement and the time to get a gun firing.. Over which terrain have you moved your gun a greater distance ??? Movement depends on terrain. It is even possible to move a mercedes benz on roads or flat grass, even woods, with several persons, which are usually not trained soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 3, 2001 Author Share Posted November 3, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rodimzew: Yes you're right, the Pak40 was not intended to be transported without a kind of tractor. Even with a tractor, it was evaluated to be too heavy for towed transportation in russian heavy terrain during winter and spring. Nevertheless, a gun can (and must) be moved, even if it weights 1.5 tons. At least it should be able to change position over a limited distance, lets say 100m. But it should take time because normally the crew has to get the gun to the position, furthermore they should take the ammunition and other stuff (repair kits) to the new position. Several walkings between positions are necessary. But i think these different movements are already represented by the slow movement and the time to get a gun firing.. Over which terrain have you moved your gun a greater distance ??? Movement depends on terrain. It is even possible to move a mercedes benz on roads or flat grass, even woods, with several persons, which are usually not trained soldiers.<hr></blockquote> I let them move over 800m - transportclass 7 made it in 70 minutes. The crew (Regular) wasn't exhausted or even tired. Then I let them move on a hill with double map contoures, so they walked upon a hill of 100m. The needed the same time, and again wasn't exhausted. Applaus. I don't think that a gun of 1.5 tons be moved, except some meters to attach it on a transport. And the ammo? The 7.5 shells weights 4-7 kg, thats additional 200 - 350 kg. Not to speak about the bigger calibers, like 10.5 or 15cm Field Guns / Howitzer. Anyway, the crew should be at least tired or exhausted after more then 10 or 20 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: AFAIK, only a few guns could be moved by the crew without transport, like the 3.7cm and 5cm PAK, or the small 7.5 infantry gun and mortars. <hr></blockquote> Aehm, and the gun would be moved from the tractor to the firing position (inside woods etc.)... how? And remember that the usual transport is horses, not tractors. Surely a guncrew is able to move the gun with manpower alone, read e.g. "Soldat" by Siegfried Knappe. It is certainly an undermodeling that the crew doesn't get tired. [ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Could be a bug in Guns movements. I saw crews reduced to one member moving a PaK of 50mm and then another of 75mm. I sent the file with the later to BTS and they are looking into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 3, 2001 Author Share Posted November 3, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf: Aehm, and the gun would be moved from the tractor to the firing position (inside woods etc.)... how? And remember that the usual transport is horses, not tractors. Surely a guncrew is able to move the gun with manpower alone, read e.g. "Soldat" by Siegfried Knappe. It is certainly an undermodeling that the crew doesn't get tired. <hr></blockquote> The book ain't available in German. What does he said about the distance they carried the gun without transport? And which gun? We have no horses in CM. We will not have in CM2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf: It is certainly an undermodeling that the crew doesn't get tired.<hr></blockquote> Very much agree. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 3-6 men can certainly maneuver the gun without tractor or horses, just like they can push a stalled car. Over 50-100m it is not too much trouble, though not terribly fast either (but once going it can reach a walking pace - momentum helps). It helps to have a road, though, and up any kind of hill, poor terrain, snow or mud makes it much harder - or with only 1-2 men. And it is tiring. The unreality of the tests, though, primarily reflects doing something no one will ever have occasion to do tactically. Nobody has 70 minutes to move a towed gun in a firefight, and if they had that long they'd also have time to get a truck (or wagon, in real life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumvir Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 I can also tell you from personal experience that six men can move a 25pdr -- which is comparable to a 75mm PaK -- up a 300m long hillslope in under three minutes. Mmmm... 25pdr races. Such fun. And then there was the time when we manhandled a 155mm howitzer 10 metres out of a hole... but that took about 20 men. 20 very enthusiastic men, I can assure you. But it took very little time to move it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 The question, at least in my mind is not whether guns can be moved, but how far, how quickly, over what kind of terrain, and at what cost in exhaustion for the crew. So far, I've had no gripe with how quickly guns can be moved, although the question of taking their ammo with them is a live issue. It does strike me as an anomaly that they can do that for several tens of minutes without getting tired though. Come to that, I was noticing last week in a battle I was playing that the 81mm mortar crews that I had carrying their loads up a fairly steep hillside didn't even seem to get winded. I wonder if what is going on is that the program was written such that troops given a Move command just don't get tired...ever. Haven't checked that in mud or deep snow though. Anybody know about that? Michael [ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 I think you're right, Michael. I don't think units ever fatigue when using a Move order. But as Jason pointed out, I'm not sure if it really matters as guns are rarely moved more than a 100m or so during a typical CM game. It's interesting that some are arguing that guns move too fast in CM. I don't know if they do, but I do remember that there have been several other threads on this topic and the general consensus from those was that guns in CM move much too slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooper Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> the general consensus from those was that guns in CM move much too slow. <hr></blockquote> No, that is just mg teams move too slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cooper: No, that is just mg teams move too slow<hr></blockquote> I tried to find those threads, but couldn't. However, I am quite certain that there was much discussion of towed guns moving too slowly in the game. In fact, I believe someone posted an official table showing how fast various guns could be pushed. It showed the guns to move about 1/3 fast than they do in CM IIRC. [ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 Ok, I found one of them: CM Artillery is too slow! It seems the slow movement of CM guns may be an abstraction to help simulate some of the crew going back to retrieve the rest of the ammo. So, maybe it's not a problem. They do go too fast up hills, however. [ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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