Moon Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 Ever wanted to see what the famous Kall Trail in the Huertgen Forest looks like, which held up a whole US regiment in November 1944? Check out Games of War - you'll find a photo gallery of a recent visit to the Kall River Valley... (to be followed by a scenario, soon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 THANKS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 Nicely done Moon, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 Hi Moon. In fact, yes I wanted. A long time ago I was attemptimg to do a operation on it, but I never got to it. Mainly because I couldn't get around the fact that the trail was at first unpassable and only later cleared by engineers. Reason I'm writing this is that I wanted to base my scenario on "Objective Schmidt," a boardgame by 'The Gamers.' Maybe if you need any specific in-depth info on that battle I can dig up something for ya. Wouldn't want you to forget Sgt. Spooner (the guy that got all of his tank platoon over the treacherous trail) or the Green Hornets for instance, now would we!! Or what about the FO's entrenched upon the Bergstein Ridge. Anyway, this may all be out of the scope of your scenario probably, as "Objective Schmidt" covers 5 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 3, 2001 Author Share Posted May 3, 2001 Hi Juju! In fact, the scenario I'm working on right now is pretty small, based around the Mill and bridge (the Germans cut the trail there around November 4-5). The scenario started out as an experiment to see if it's at all possible to do with the CM scenario editor, but it turns out quite nicely so far, and I think it'll be an interesting battle (against the terrain as much as against the enemy - just like in real). However, I very much like the idea of a 5 day operation in the Huertgen (love making big operations myself somehow, even if no one plays them ), so I would be definitely interested in any info you have. So far, the best source I found is "A Dark and Bloody Ground" by Edward Miller, but it's by far not as detailed as I like to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 As it happens I like Big operations, so If you make it, I'll play it. I'll write down as much of the useful info and send it to you. If I can get hold of a scanner somewhere I'll try and scan portions of the (game) map. Don't know how accurate it really is, but it may help. When you finish your scenario, could you send it to me? It'd be a little like reliving that ol' boardgame. Minus the 1500+ counters, that is (phew, darn that cat)! Later, Juju Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 4, 2001 Author Share Posted May 4, 2001 Great! Don't bother with scanning the game map, though, I have 1:25000 topo maps of the area. But some OOB's, unit dispositions etc. would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feldgrau Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: ...So far, the best source I found is "A Dark and Bloody Ground" by Edward Miller, but it's by far not as detailed as I like to have it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Moon, Have you looked at "The Battle for the Huertgen Forest" by Charles MacDonald? I haven't read it in quite a while, but I seem to remember that it was a decent accounting of the battle. I haven't read the book you mentioned, so I have no basis for comparison. Wish I did... Regards, MSP [ 05-03-2001: Message edited by: Feldgrau ] [ 05-03-2001: Message edited by: Feldgrau ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 4, 2001 Author Share Posted May 4, 2001 Hi Feldgrau. I ordered it from Amazon but it's on 2-3 weeks delivery I think, so I will have to wait. So although I can't compare (yet), "A Dark and Blood Ground" is definitely a good book. It gives a fairly good view on both sides and goes down to Company level when describing events, which is great for making scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 4, 2001 Author Share Posted May 4, 2001 Oh... quickie update: I've added shots from the CM map to compare with the real life pictures. What do you think? Sometimes the CM editor still surprises me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: Great! Don't bother with scanning the game map, though, I have 1:25000 topo maps of the area. But some OOB's, unit dispositions etc. would be nice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unit dispositions? You got em. give me a little time and I'll send them. Mind you, while the Allied OOB is fairly accurate, portions of the Axis OOB called for some 'educated guesses.' Looks nice, with the editor pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 This has always been an interesting subject for gamers; I remember reading reviews of Objective Schmidt in Strategy and Tactics - and of course one of the GI Anvil of Victory scenarios was based on an action around Kommerscheidt (GENERAL readers may remember an article called Who Was That 9-2? which gave a brief history of the personalites involved in that scenario). Thanks for the link - more publicity for the Blutiger Eimer, eh? Funny that Bloody Bucket hasn't been in this thread yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Funny that Bloody Bucket hasn't been in this thread yet...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nickname for the 28th after the battles. As a whole the 28th reported 5684 casualties in november.. The 112th alone lost 2093 officers and men, almost two thirds of its TO&E complement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juju: Nickname for the 28th after the battles. As a whole the 28th reported 5684 casualties in november.. The 112th alone lost 2093 officers and men, almost two thirds of its TO&E complement!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Neat info - but I was talking about BloodyBucket the poster whose relative was in the 28th! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Um, er...Oh, him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Moon...outstanding photo tour...One comment about the fence...if the map editor scenes are from the scenario you are working on...perhaps the fence wasn't there in 1944..nor the hedge. In fact, alot of slintered trees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Hey, even a BloodyBucket has to work sometimes! Some books you might find of use: Boesch, Paul. Road to Huertgen: Forest in Hell. Houston: Gulf Publishing, 1962. Colbaugh, Jack. The Bloody Patch: A True Story of the Daring 28th Infantry Division. New York: Vantage Press, 1973. Curry, Cecil B. Follow Me and Die: The Destruction of an American Division in WWII. Briarcliff Manor, NY: Stein and Day, 1984. MacDonald, Charles B. The Battle of the Huertgen Forest. Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company, 1963. Miller, Edward G. A Dark and Bloody Ground: The Hurtgen Forest and the Roer River Dams, 1944-1945. College Station, TX: Texas A&M Press, 1995. Whiting, Charles. The Battle of the Huertgen Forest: The Untold Story of a Disastrous Campaign. New York: Orion Books, 1989. My father was in Easy Company, 2nd Bn., 110th Regt. His favorite Huertgen forest story involves receiving word to expect 20 replacements. Later that evening, three men, one of whom was wounded, were presented to him. When he asked where the rest were, one of the men gave him a dozen or so dogtags, told him that some others had "ran off" and that they were all that was left. This must have been in front of Rafflesbrand. I got the combat interviews given by his platoon commander from the national archives, complete with terrain sketches. Too bad there are no Weasels in CMBO. They played a key role in the battle. One could just use halftracks in place of the Weasels. Good luck with the scenario. Most Huertgen scenarios deal with the 112th, who actually gained and lost ground. The 110th beat themselves bloody in the Rafflesbrand area to no good effect, barely moving at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 4, 2001 Author Share Posted May 4, 2001 Frenchy, funny enough that is one little detail which I was able to find info on. In the Mill restaurant are pictures of the area from 1945-1950. There WAS a fence in just the same spot, as there was a forester house right next to it BloodBucket - funny enough, Raffelsbrand is a scenario I made a while ago, but it's not ready for release yet. As you say, too much blood, too little maneuver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Hmm...Do you change history to make a better scenario, or just issue it with a warning that it is good history but poor gameplay? Moon, those pictures are great. I will show them to the old man, but I am sure that his recollection includes mighty few vistas and an awful lot of mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 5, 2001 Author Share Posted May 5, 2001 Heh... no, actually sometimes by changing the scope, selecting a different map portion, or simply shifting to fighting at a different date can make a difference to gameplay without changing history. But let's be honest - since a 100% historical scenario is impossible anyway (OOB's, positions, map details are never 100% the way they were - and in any case it's ahistorical the moment you hit the GO! button for the first time at the very latest), I do employ "design decision" within the framework provided by my research, usually with the goal to enhance the fun part of playing the battle, yet without changing the "spirit" of the historical engagement. What sounds academic is meant to say simply: "it's a game". Martin PS. Such changes are usually found in the briefings, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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