Nordic Wannabee Tournament

[The Commissar]

Since we will not pick our own units for these scenarios (right?), what is gamey or not can easily be decided there after. For example, scouting/attacking with crews or empty bazooka/mortar/whatnot teams should be considered gamey to the extreme.

That one I can slam the gamey label on with no ifs about it.

Oh, and one question:

How will scoring be decided? Do you have to lose one game to be kicked out, or will we be allowed t lose several and thus have to replay some people to determine a section winner? I assume after one is chosen from a section as overall winner, they play against the winners from the other sections, correct?

[Strider]

FYI Section 4 players :

I can start at anytime, and play all five at once. I can (normally) return at least 1 turn per weekday evening, and multiple ones on Sat & Sun. I'm Pacific Standard Time (-8 GMT). Looking forward to playing people I've not yet played. I'm good natured about my games, however they're going

[Cooper]

What I saw, because of unbalance scenarios, the scorings a little different. For example, If you are the Amis on scenario 1 you are really competing against everyone else that is playing Amis on scenario 1. If you beat me 65-47 in scenario 1 but that 65 points, when compared to the rest of the players that were Americans, was the lowest around you would receive 0 points while I would receive the max. Hope that makes sense

[Treeburst155]

The following was taken from the Nordic Championship thread. It states how I think you guys should handle the gamey question.

Now it is time for my lecture on gamey play. There are no rules concerning such play because every situation is different. What might be gamey in one situation might be perfectly OK in another. There is also disagreement on what is or isn't gamey. There are however some tactics that are generally considered gamey. If you use such tactics you may detract from your opponents' enjoyment of the game. Below is a list of tactics generally accepted as gamey. Discuss this list with your opponents. You should know how he feels about the list. Gamey tactics aren't nearly as effective if you KNOW your opponent is going to use them. If you know he intends to use some of these tactics you can defend against the tactics or use them yourself.

I cannot over-emphasize the importance of coming to an understanding with your opponents concerning this list. Be truthful with your opponents if you intend to use any of the tactics below.

POTENTIALLY Gamey Tactics-Use at your own risk. Your opponent may not like it if he sees these things.

1) Setting fire to "squares" or buildings unoccupied by enemy troops, ESPECIALLY to deny a VL or covered access to one.

2) Advancing large formations along the map edge.

3) Scouting with AT teams, crews of knocked out vehicles or guns, MG teams, and anybody who is "low" on ammo.

4) Recon with light (cheap) vehicles well into enemy territory.

5) Exposing AT teams and FOs SOLEY for the purpose of drawing enemy fire.

6) Ordering vehicle and gun crews to participate in an attack or hunt down enemy teams or spotters.

7) Rushing infantry straight at a known enemy position (especially through cover) WHILE TARGETING THEM with the running units, and with no supporting/suppressive fire.

8) Rushing the flag(s) in the last turn or two when you would have no hope of surviving were the game to go another turn or two.

Avoid these tactics and you are safe. Use them and you have stepped into the risky gray area of "Potentially Gamey Tactics".

GOLDEN RULES:

Protect your AT teams until they have a target.

Use half squads and spare HQs for scouting/recon.

Keep your vehicle/gun crews alive.

Ask yourself the following questions while giving orders:

1) Would the order be given in real life?

2) Would the order be obeyed in real life?

3) Will the results of that order affect the battle in a realistic way or will you be exploiting imperfections of the game engine?

_______________________________________________

Cooper,

I will adjust the deadline if the scenarios are large. I have only seen two of them so far.

Treeburst155 out

[Treeburst155]

Here's how the scoring system works. This is taken from the Wild Bill Tourney thread. The only difference is that you guys are playing five games in four sections where they are playing seven games in three sections.

Wild Bill's Rumblings of War Scoring System (complete explanation)

First of all, the primary purpose of this rather elaborate scoring system is

to make it possible to measure skill inspite of scenario imbalance, since

balance in CM is VERY difficult to achieve and is also not very realistic.

The other thing accounted for with this scoring system is inconsistent play

that gives big victories to players simply because their opponent surrenders

prematurely or tries very risky tactics just for the fun of it. A person might

play like this when he no longer feels he has a chance to win the tourney. His

play, in such a case, would not be up to his real capabilities. This scoring

system limits to a certain degree the points awarded for huge victories while

still giving a nice bonus to those who manage one. The result is that a couple

huge victories will put you noticeably out in front, but you will not be able

to run away with the tournament. You will still have to exhibit strong play in

the rest of your games to win the tournament. A player exhibiting consistent

strong performance with no huge victories will be nipping at your heels. By

the same token, if you have an especially bad game you do not find yourself

hopelessly out of the running. Strong play in your other games will overcome

your lapse of command ability in that disastrous game.

HOW IT WORKS

Across the three sections each scenario will be played twelve times by the

twenty four players. Your score in a scenario will be listed among the eleven

others who played that scenario from the side you did. When all the results

are in for that scenario the median score will be determined for each side of

the scenario. The median of a list of numbers is the number that has an equal

amount of numbers lower than it, and higher than it. For example the median of

this group of scores is 7 {1 3 6 7 8 10 14}. If there is an even amount of

numbers in the group the median is midway between the two numbers that split

the center. The median of this group is 6 {1 2 5 7 8 9}. You can think of the

median as the average, but with less weight being given to extreme outliers.

The median will usually be fairly near the average except in the case of

outliers.

Once the median for a side in a scenario is determined by looking at the twelve

scores for that side, your distance from the median comes into play. If the

median score for a side of a scenario is twenty five and you score thirty five

points then you scored ten points over the median. BTW, if the median is much

less than fifty using twelve games to calculate it then you have an unbalanced

scenario. This does not matter using this system.

After we figure the difference (either +/-) between your score and the median

we plug that figure into a formula Nabla came up with. You do not need to

worry about this formula! Nabla is making a simple program so you can see how

it works in various hypothetical situations of your own creation without the

need of a fancy calculator or college level math skills. If you can figure out

the median you can come up with final tourney scores.

The formula translates your distance from the median (+/-) into a tourney score.

This is your final score for that scenario. The sum of all your final scores

for the eight scenarios is how the winner will be determined in your section.

Keep in mind that although game scores will be compared with players across

the three sections to determine the median, the final tally of your scores will

only be compared with those in your section. The more games used to determine

the median, the more accurate the median will be. Determining the median is,

in effect, determining the balance of a scenario. The more samples the better.

That's why we go outside your section to come up with the median.

Scoring summarized:

1) Compare scores of all players playing the same side in the scenario and

determine the median.

2) Determine each player's distance in points , either plus or minus, from the

median. (CM score - median = distance from median)

3) Plug this number into Nabla's formula and out comes your tourney score for

that scenario.

4) Total all eight tourney scores to arrive at players' final scores.

5) The highest final scores in each section win that section and move on to the

playoff series.

There ya have it. In case you are mathematically inclined here is the formula:

(d) represents your distance from the median. (d) can be positive or negative.

(sgn) This represents the sign of (d). In place of (sgn) you will put either

a "+" or a "-" into the formula.

a This is the variable that determines the shape of the curve. To use the

formula you need to substitute .055 for "a".

e This is an interesting number equal to approximately 2.718. Like "pi" it

has interesting mathematical properties which is the only reason it is used,

according to Nabla. Scientific calculators have an "e" key on them.

Now the formula: (sgn)(1/a)*(1-e to the power of (-a*|d|))

Don't worry about it!! Nabla's got a program coming you can use that will

do all this automatically for you. I'll also be posting hypotheticals from time

to time to help you get a handle on this. The main thing to understand is that

consistent strong play is what you should strive for without getting caught up

in the desire for overwhelming victories. If you see a golden opportunity for

a Major victory you might go for it; but don't take big risks to achieve it.

Treeburst155 out.

[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]</p>

[Redwolf]

I really hate to bring that up, but I just re-read all the old tourney threads and I have seen how much trouble people had because they didn't agree what a fun game is. See for example http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=020421&p=5

We have the "gamey" things that expoit game problems and we will speak about them when PBEMs begin. I don't expect problems here.

However, since I never played most of you, I think one very general game fun statement has to be made:

I will do everything realistic to avoid a fair fight. E.g., your AFV will be assaulted by the cheapest crap I have (but masses of it), then by AT teams, then by TDs, then I will try to blind them or push them into irrelevant territory and only if nothing else helps, I will do an even tank duel. If you are looking for even gunsligher high-noon clashes, please don't play me.

Of course, all I want is a fun game. I am not even a player who needs to win to have fun. However, I know there are people out there who don't enjoy this "play style", which for me is the essense of tactics and required for play fun. So please speak up beforehand so that we don't end up with 50% non-fun games each.

Also, since this is about unbalanced scenarios, it is extra important that you understand the victory point system.

[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Treeburst155]

It sounds to my like you simply use good tactics, Redwolf. I don't think that will upset anybody. If it does, then that's tough. War is hell.

As far as that other thread you linked to, that mainly involved pre-game negotiations over force picks which is not an issue with this tournament. I will never run a tournament without pre-made scenarios again. This is the way to go IMO. Other problems on that thread involved gamey tactics. Since then I came up with the guidelines and recommendations I posted above. As long as players discuss the issue of gamey tactics adequately, there will be few problems.

[Jack Trap]

Thank you Treeburst for laying down some basic guidelines (and all that other stuff too). Tactics #1 through #8 have proven to me to not only reflect poor-sports-person-ship (PC and how), but also are bad strategy in general.

The only real "gamey" issue that will undoubtedly come up again and again is #8- flag rushing. My experience suggests that everyone's behavior changes toward the end of a battle- either in defense or offence. While gamey, it is simply human nature to take advantage of the clock, the question is to what extent.

While discussing human nature can be fun, the reason I post this is to suggest that all these above stated guidelines will be ignored at different times by different people, either consciously or not. I think that we all should assume that no rule is written in stone. For those that take offense to such tactics, they should make their positions known. I don't think that the collective experiences will be enhanced by people acting as gamey cops.

In other words, unless previously agreed, do not cry foul for minor infractions.

I don't play to win, I play to play, and this looks like a great deal of fun (and frustration).

[Treeburst155]

Scheer has provided his email address. I updated the final player list on page two.

Treeburst155 out.

[The Commissar]

TO MY OPPONENTS IN SECTION 3:

Dear Cpl Carrot, Warhammer, Lopaka, Dogface 21 and the much esteemed Wreck.

Before the deadline, I would just like to ask you guys your preffered playing style.

Those of you who prefer PBEM play, please say so.

Those of you who like TCP/IP and are willing to arrange a date, speak up and let's discuss the time, date, and meeting place.

Because I don't mind multitasking, those of you who like PBEM can ask me to play simultaneously while I am playing my other opponents from our section. I'll be able to do it all at once to be on the safe side of the time limit.

EDIT: I would just like to add that there is no need to do all this by e-mail, because this is AFAIK our thread, and until the tourney starts, we can save inbox space and arrange everything "in-thread".

[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]</p>

[Strider]

Re gamey :

#2 : IMO, this would depend on the map/terrain/weather and the units you have to work with. I've found that the terrain dictates "where" your units move in most every game I've played.

Maybe there's something about this item that I'm misinterpeting ?

[Hensworth]

I have big problems with the 'gameyness' rules.

Gamey to me is a person who will only play a very specific type of game, so he can use a trick he's perfected (usually incorporating some inherent game engine frailty) over and over again.

Since the scenarios and the forces will be decided for us, I really don't think we'll be running into this kind of behaviour.

What's mentioned here are all tactics that may work for or against you. They don't lend a consistent advantage to the player who uses them. Moreover, your opponent is free to do the same thing. Since he could'nt have picked his force specifically to make any of these tactics 'sure fire'.

Numbers 2,3,4,5 and 6 all fall into this category.

Number 1. Fair game to me. An opponent who torches a VL has to be pretty sure he's going to gain control of the other(s). If he pulls it off, more power to him.

And what the hell is 7 all about ??? I'm not allowed to rush an enemy position ???

Number 8. Does anyone use the Endgame Randomizer ? I don't, but it might be an idea.

Please, let's not confuse ingenuity, inventiveness and daring with playing gamey.

[Treeburst155]

Guys,

All the POTENTIALLY gamey tactics I listed are just that, POTENTIALLY gamey. It depends on the battlefield situation. For example, if a VL is located 60 meters from a map edge, would a mass advance along the map edge be wrong? No.

Think of the list as talking points to discuss with your opponents. All these items have been declared gamey at one time or another over the months, but there is disagreement.

The most important thing is to ask yourself the questions: would the order be given in real life?

Would the order be obeyed? If carried out will the order have a realistic effect on the battle?

Number #7 involves the fact that running units fire too often and derive too much benefit from cover that they shouldn't have since they are running, not hiding behind trees. IIRC this issue is being addressed in CMBB. In the meantime when you rush troops just don't target the enemy with the rushing troops. Let them acquire the targets themselves. They will do this when they reach their destination.

I personally don't have trouble with #7, but some people don't like it. That's why it is on the list. It's just something to discuss with your opponents. The list is not a list of rules. It is just a list of things I think you should touch on with your opponents so you know where the other guy stands.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Let me add that charges of gamey play have been very few and far between since I've begun encouraging players to discuss the issue a bit with each other. Gameyness is really no big deal if you know your opponent's views on the various questionable tactics.

For example, If I were playing Sgt Kelly I would feel free to torch the map with my Wasps with complete abandon since area denial by fire does not bother him and may very well be used against me. We would have no problems concerning the tactic because we have discussed it and know how the other guy feels about it. See how it works?

Treeburst155 out.

[Jack Trap]

If I understand the intention of establishing the "gamey" points #1-8 correctly, then these guidelines are NOT to be used by one player to restrict the actions of another, instead they are to be used to help each of us describe our own play style to our opponent prior to the start of a battle.

[Cpl Carrot]

To my opponents (The Commissar, Wreck, Lopaka, and Dogface 21 and Warhammer):

I am only able to play PBEM. I have never played TCP/IP and do not think a torny is the place to start (well maybe for you guys ). Sorry. Your turns may need to be zipped, until you send them I do not know. Just send one of each and I will let you know if you need to continue. It seems to be a quirk with Opera, not much I can do about it, sorry.

I am able to start on the 15, pre match discussions can be started before then if you guys wish. I am able to do at least one turn a day, maybe more if the flatmate gets off the phone

Any way best of luck, break a leg etc

Cpl Carrot

Ps no you do not have to call me SIR!

[The Commissar]

Cpl Carrot,

Sir, yes SIR! Oh, uh, sorry. Right then, I got PBEM with you, and now I need to hear from the other 4 blokes. Common then, speak up!

To keep track of my opponents:

Cpl Carrot: Scenario 1, PBEM, Nov 15th.

[a1steaks]

To the guys in section 2 (THumpre, Ricochet, Massattack, White4, Jack Trap) I can play either PBEM or TCP/IP. Let me know when you're ready.

[Cpl Carrot]

Oh one other thing could my opponants state how far infront/behind GMT they are so I can get a indication of when to expect a turn etc. I'm thirteen hours in front BTW.

Cpl Carrot

[Treeburst155]

Jack Trap,

You have it right. Nobody is restricted from using POTENTIALLY gamey tactics, but they should be upfront and honest about their intention to use the tactics. The main thing again is that both players KNOW how the other guy feels about certain tactics. This is the key to harmonious competition.

Treeburst155 out.

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]</p>

[imported_WARHAMMER]

Hello y'all!!

Great to be a part of such a challeging tourney!

I can't wait to get started! I'm a PBEM man, I

can't seem to free up enough time in my day to

catch my favorite teams.....so TCP is out. I know

whats gamey etc. I'm a realist, it all comes down

to common sense to me. And to me it's all about

having fun.

I would also like to get all five games going at

once if possible. To all my opponets...good luck, have alot of fun, and lousy shooting

Kurt

[White4]

A nice leisurely weekend doing yard work, fire up the computer and...WOO HOO!! I'm, I've got opponents, and instructions on how to begin dying by their hand!! Err... wait a sec.. anyway, I have sent email to the usual suspects in my group. Hope to start all 5 as PBEMs ASAP.

Lets go...

[The Commissar]

Cpl Carrot:

To answer your question, I am 5 hours behind GMT. USA, Eastern time.

My opponent list so far:

Cpl Carrot: Scenario 1, PBEM, Nov 15th

Warhammer: Scenario 2, PBEM, Nov 8th (official start date specified, since no other date provided)

OK all you other 3 blokes, speak on up!

[a1steaks]

I'm ready for PBEM or TCP/IP whenever you are Commissar.

[SGT_Gold]

To all the group 1 players, I'm in NYC on EST. I am better for PBEM, later in the week for TCP if possible.