How many PzGrdr divs actually had tanks?

[offtaskagain]

I guess TO&E was 1 battalion, but how many ever even got close if any? And which kind usually? TDs don't count.

[Redwolf]

Not looking into my books now, only some divisions had their own thick AFVs, and then StuGs.

But usually their own support AFVs was thin vehicles like 251/x and Grilles. They would either work with tank divisions or if not and the need for thick AFVs arose they would be reinforced by the independent StuG brigades.

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: redwolf hates artillery ]</p>

[Keith]

Actually it was typical for a Panzer Grenadier Division to have a battalion of assault guns, typically Stug IIIG or Stug IV, on paper. The number of actual vehicles varied based on how long the unit had been in the line, if the unit was an SS unit such as the 17th SS Panzergrenadier, etc. Note the Panzergrenadiers did not have any Sdkfz 251 APCs in their TOE because these vehicles were reserved for the grenadier regiments of the Panzer Divisions. The number of APCs was limited and in fact only the 1st Battalion of the 1st Grenadier Regiment of a Panzer Division were equipped with 251s.

[Stoffel]

there was a Luftwaffe division(goering division)with a Tigerbattalion

only the crack SS divisions and the armies gross deutschland division had organic tank batalions

but I can be wrong,where are the grogs when you need them

[Eric Young]

These are all generalizations. In truth a panzer grenadier division could have any mix of tanks or assault guns.

For instance, at the start of the Russian Offensive at Stalingrad the German 3rd Motorized Division had 32 Pz II, III, and IV's in Pz.Abt.106. The 60th Mot.Inf. had 21 total tanks in Pz.Abt.160. In fact I can't find any StuG's in any of the motorized infantry divisions ToE that had panzer battalions in 1942. These divisions went on to be re-designated panzer grenadier.

In 1943 after the re-designation the 16th Pz.Grenadier had 53 tanks, type II, III, and IV when it went into Zitadelle. Grossdeutschland had a full regiment of tanks total 124 of all types, including 14 Flammpanzers.

On the Italian front on August 20th 1943 the 15th Panzer Grenadier had 15 Panzer IV's and one Panzer III. On the same date the 29th Pz.Gr. had 38 StuG's and the 90th Pz.Gr. had 58 Panzer III's and Panzer IV's. The 3rd Pz.Gr. had 42 StuG's.

In the Fall of 1944 the 3rd Pz.Gr. had 37 StuG's and the 15th Pz.Gr. had 36 Panzer IV's. The 17th SS had 42 StuG's.

During the Battle of the Bulge/Nordwind 3rd Pz.Gr. had 41 StuG's on December 10th and and the 15th Pz.Gr. had 30 StuG's and 14 Panzer IV's.

As you can see, there are no hard rules about tanks or StuG's in ToE for the Panzer Grenadier Divisions. There are only facts. And the facts are all that matters.

E

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Eric Young ]</p>

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stoffel:

there was a Luftwaffe division(goering division)with a Tigerbattalion

only the crack SS divisions and the armies gross deutschland division had organic tank batalions

but I can be wrong,where are the grogs when you need them <hr></blockquote> the Goering division you speak of did exist, though it was not a luftwaffe division. it was a WaffenSS division, and it was elite. the division was stationed in italy.

[JonS]

No, it was a Luftwaffe formation. Started out as a regiment, got up to Korps sized.

The division trained in Holland, and fought in North Africa (Tunisia), Sicily, Italy, and the Eastern Front (Poland, East Prussia, Germany).

Regards

JonS

[Iron Chef Sakai]

no, they were waffen ss, i am almost postive, though they were under control of Goering, who was in charge of the lefwaffe, but his powers extended beyond that.

[WWB]

Iron Chef, you are wrong. The full title of the division is Fallschirm Panzer Division Hermann Goering (not that you could air-lift Tigers, but whose counting). And they were a Luftwaffe formation from all accounts I have read. If you have a source that states otherwise, why don't you tell us.

Divisional operational history is here and you can buy this book to learn more.

WWB

[JasonC]

I can explain the confusion about the HG panzer division. All German panzer troops, including the tankers of this LW division and the regular Heer panzer divisions, wore a black uniform. Many Americans (I don't know about other Allies) at the time and afterward, associated the black uniform with the SS, and thought anybody in one must be in the SS - which was not remotely the case.

HG was part of the Luftwaffe ground forces, which included this formation (eventually a corps, as others have noted), 10 FJ divisions, 24 Luftwaffe field divisions at one time or another, numerous Flak formations including some very large ones, and ground support elements for the planes.

The total manpower of the "Luftwaffe" reached 2 million men at the peak. It was Goering's private army, and in the internal clique politics of the regime was a crude balance to Himmler's SS - both of which ballooned over the course of the war.

After the collapse on both fronts in the summer of 1944, personnel started draining out of the Luftwaffe into the Heer, to replace the losses in the regular army, and the relatively unsuccessful Luftwaffe field divisions were phased out. The more successful FJ remained a large body all the way to the end.

[JasonC]

As for the original question, Eric has mostly addressed it. One correction to his list, however - the 3rd and 15th Pz Gdr didn't fight in Normandy. At the same date they were in Italy, not in France. Just a quibble really.

There are also a few other things that can be said about the Pz Gdr division type. It evolved over the war, and many later Panzer divisions started out as Pz Gdr divisions - notably all the early SS mobile formations. That is why the SS panzer divisions had 3-battalion infantry regiments instead of the 2-battalion standard of the Heer panzer units. It is a legacy of the time when they were Pz Gdr divisions.

The Grossdeutchland division took the same route, passing through Pz Gdr status on its way to armored. When you see examples (typically in Russia and around mid-war) of Pz Gdr division designations along with AFV totals of 100-150 tanks, they have generally made the transition to panzer divisions, with the name alone lagging behind.

The TOE of the late war Pz Gdr division was supposed to be 1 panzer battalion plus the divisional panzerjaeger battalion, the former supposed to have tanks and the later either StuGs or Jagdpanzers. In practice, StuG were more common for the PzJgr battalion, and sometimes replaced the armor battalion. E.g. 17th SS, which was missing its Pz Jgr battalion in Normandy and used StuGs in the "panzer" battalion. The Pz Jgr battalion existed and had Jagds, but wasn't sent to the theater until after the U.S. breakout, and was then committed seperately.

The armor battalions were sometimes missing altogether (just StuG cases), and often consisted of Pz IVs only. Nominally it was supposed to be a mixed battalion with two companies of Panthers and two of Pz IVs, but this was practically never accomplished. There weren't enough Panthers to go around earlier on, most were needed just to keep the panzer divisions proper "topped off", and later the high command tended to divert them to new formations smaller than division size (Panzer brigades e.g).

So, in CM terms, you would generally see Pz Gdr forces with mostly motorized Pz Gdr squads (and sometimes just rifle 44, 45, or SS 44, 45 types, without the larger load of MGs), in a "combined arms" force type, with some StuG or Pz IV. Typically the mix would be one step level lower for AFVs than for infantry, and sometimes half that. E.g. One platoon of 4 Pz IVs, or 3 StuG, to a company or two of infantry.

And the previous poster is correct - In the CM period (late war, not transitional cases in mid-war Russia) these forces almost never had halftracks, except in their divisional recon battalion (2-3 companies per division, plus armored cars and gun halftracks). They were motorized infantry mostly, with modest levels of "vanilla AFV" armor support.

[Eric Young]

Good call Jason, I had too many thoughts going on in my head to type what I should have posted.

Post edited for better accuracy.

E