Gunny Bunny Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Quote from Article: "A first-person shooter player might think Combat Mission’s graphics somewhat dated, and in all honesty the graphics are quite a bit behind the bleeding edge." http://www.insidemacgames.com/reviews/view.php?ID=8 Seems like others share the same view as I do !! Gunny Bunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 I sure wish you'd just dry up and blow away. Your tired blabbering about graphics serves no constructive purpose. [This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G4A Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Quoting from the same article: Pros * Unbelievable attention to detail - definitely a simulation, not just another game * Quantum leap in war-gaming graphics * Obviously made by programmers "for the love of the game" * Concurrent release for Mac and that other OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Maybe he was talking about the fine print. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Gunny Bunny -- I don't expect you to understand this really, but CM is a different order of game from Quake / Diablo II. My advice is to read up on polygonal rendering in video games, then do a little math. CM, in it largest rendition, spits out more polygons than Diablo and has more work to do in generating a wego movie without fixed view points. If we reduced the horizon to 500 meters, removed the 3 and 4 settings, and did some other POV tweeks to it, I am sure that polygon count could be pushed per tank. CM will advance, but if you want lots of detail on a small scale then you need to play Diablo II, were the smaller number of sprites can recieve greater rendering detail. No one has ever said to you that CM need stay completely fixed in graphics space. The modding system itself has resulted in may improvements. But you came through on the Graphics thread and said so many things that just are not so that it was hard to figure out where to start refuting them. My advice is that if your high school offers them, take a good course in micro economics and pay special attention to the section on maximised profits through service to so called "broad niches" and how that effects a secondary product market like video games (which rely on hardware) to find a happy middle ground between sales and quality (after all, I have access to a 16 processor Linnux box with a gig of ram and a full multiprocessing render farm for 3D animation work. Why not forget the kids stuff you are talking about and come play with that pipe hitting heavy iron. Your mom, afterall, will pay the 35 thousand dollars needed to let you play CM designed for this system, and it is a good 3-5 years ahead of the consumer industry). Next you may want to take a course in 3D design related to rendering of objects to find out why hardware works the way it does and how software APIs like Open GL render 3D objects into 2D, then read some trades to allow yourself to make a good prediction on the processing power in terms of polygons per second rendered that will be available to the average hardware buyer. Take this figure expressed as a mean, standard deviation, and a bell curve estimate and match it to a profit maximization curve and come back to the forum armed with numbers based on averge and range of customer ability to process polygons, and profit maximization (use 1 or 2 standard deviations down as you like when you generate this number). I should note Dataquest publishes much of this data and it can be gotten for free. Then when you return your comments will be extremely useful. You may well have a point that CM under estimates graphics capabilities of the audience. But right now you are taking a nice big orange and comparing it to an apple and proclaiming that the orange is not a very well grown apple. If anything, compare CM to the various Matrix Games offerings and the latest Steel Panthers games and ask yourself which one is pushing the most polygons. Errr, well, no other company level wargame is pushing any polygons at all, they are all 2D flat image based. That should tell you something. And, don't bother posting those images from some Quake mod for WW2 fighting. At most that is squad level action and is based on a different concept. Those infantry may look cool jumping out of a HT with their German helments and M1 garands (anyone noticed that the Germans all has US weapons in those images?) but no engine will draw 1600 of them on the same screen from CMs view 4, and even if the engine could, no computer could render it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Phoenix: I sure wish you'd just dry up and blow away. Your tired blabbering about graphics serves no constructive purpose. [This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-27-2001).] While it is blabbering, and not constructive, he has the right to blabber, realizing that we will come back with facts. Notice as said above that the comment was taken completly out of context of the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 That's the way to tell'em! Feed'em a bunch of Quantom Physics or something. LOL! Seriously Gunny Bunny, your average FPS game doesn't push a fraction of polygons that CM does. What makes FPS look so good is that they only display a very small area which then blends into FOG as you look further down range. They also tend to use a different texturing structure like FastFiles that aren't very large in size. One hi-res hull top in CM is probably the same size as one of these FastFiles. Again the issue here is that since CM is 3D, every FPS fan looks at it and expects awesome graphics. Hell I did back in the Fall of '99 when I first got wind of CM in its Alpha days. I first found CM when Hidden & Dangerous came out and just like you, I wasn't impressed at all. But if you had and bought H&D's expansion pack, you would have realized that the Frame Rate dropped BIG ASS TIME because it tried to display large outdoor expanses. Well this is what CM does. It displays LARGE OUTDOOR expanses. Most FPS only display one or two small rooms or corridors. Also, if you had H&D, you may recall the C3M6 mission where the framerate would drop to something aweful like 2FPS due to the large amount of soldiers, et al. on the screen at one time. Same principle applies here. CM can do this without slow Frame Rates, but a FPS engine can't. ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Slapdragon: While it is blabbering, and not constructive, he has the right to blabber, realizing that we will come back with facts. Notice as said above that the comment was taken completly out of context of the article. I would agree with you if this wasn't the only thing he ever talks about. But it is. It's complain complain complain about graphics. He has no clue what he's going on about as others have pointed out time and time again and yet he just keeps it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Gunny Bunny: Quote from Article: "A first-person shooter player might think Combat Mission’s graphics somewhat dated, and in all honesty the graphics are quite a bit behind the bleeding edge." http://www.insidemacgames.com/reviews/view.php?ID=8 Seems like others share the same view as I do !! Gunny Bunny Egad! We have only heard your point of view how many times now? You keep posting that the graphics are horrible and that this board is terrible. Do you actually take time out of your whining to play CMBO? I mean all that in the nicest way possible of course. See I even included smilies -----> ------------------ "'S muladach ma theid ar sgaoileadh..." -Duncan Ban Macintyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG DD Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 gunny bunny... if u had any clue how a game is developed and designed....then u would realize that cm is master piece of gaming know how.......your avg. quack models(and i spelled it wrong on purpose}are visualy impressive, as along with some other first person games outthere today buuuuuuuuuuuuuuutttt!...this is where u need to pay close attention.if u know any thing about a 3d game u know that polygons are used to make the models of the game....know too many polygons can slow even the fastest g force cards to a halt...the bitmaps in cm also play a part in bogging down your card. so a happy balance must be struck to display the vast amount of units that are regularly rendered in cm.another thing to take in to account is the broadest possable customer base is bts's market,now sure they could make the models and grahpics way more detaied but you would need 3 of nividias latest cards to run it and the average person isnt using the latests cards all the time.......know sit down and think about it...have u ever played a first person game and seen the amount of units that are displayed in combat mission on screen ...uuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh no....cause their games trade of the amount of models in game for the eye candy that u see.....its easy to rifle off critisim these days especially lately on the boards...before u say the grapics arnt up to your standards ponder what it takes to make a game of this size and scale in 3d. p.s. dont start a flame session with me cause i wont play! ------------------ MAKE IT SHORT AND SWEET THEN GET THE F#$K OUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Gunny Bunny: Quote from Article: "A first-person shooter player might think Combat Mission’s graphics somewhat dated, and in all honesty the graphics are quite a bit behind the bleeding edge." Mhhh... I respectfully disagree. Just take a look at my CM settings. ( BTW: Thanks to Tiger , Marco , Panzertruppen and all other moders ! ) Regards Thomas Klimisch ------------------ Visit Toms Combat Mission HQ ( bilingual site ) at http://home.germany.net/101-77027/CM/TCMHQ.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Phoenix: I would agree with you if this wasn't the only thing he ever talks about. But it is. It's complain complain complain about graphics. He has no clue what he's going on about as others have pointed out time and time again and yet he just keeps it up. Ok, I stand corrected in defending Gunny Bunny. I did a search of his contributions. 6 threads telling everyone to go over to Usenet because the forum is tyrannical: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/012753.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/012949.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013279.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013540.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/014032.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015373.html 1 thread that sort of acts as a master for all these and could be considered the 7th in a line: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013380.html A related bitch under continuation of locked threads that, except for the fact he did not start this thread, would be #8: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015588.html And an unsupported and rather lame post about allied armor being incredibly powerful compared to Germans http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015318.html Followed by further unsupported comments in the QB controversy (http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015334.html) and these graphics suck threads. He made one useful question thread, this one http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015431.html that brought up an operational point in game mechanics. So of all the threads he has started, one was indeed a regular question and not an unsupported comment / call to come to his Usenet thread. I am very sorry for chewing you out Pheonix, you were correct to point out Gunny Bunny's record of posting, which usually should not be an issue in any discussion lest it lead to a flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 If the graphics in CM had been enhanced before release to the level of top notch FPS, etc., then I and several others here with medium or low end systems would not even be able to play the game. For a wargame, CM's "out of the box" graphics are WAY ahead of anything seen so far. With mods (and the ability to pick and choose which we use) CM not only has FANTASTIC graphics, but the ability to let us personal the look of EVERYTHING in the game. I'll take this option ANY DAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 GB is probably a disgruntled Hasblo Squad Leader executive. It was probably GB that put all those porn links in a file on Hasblo's B-17 cd By the way Gunny-B, I'm a satisfied customer. I've never liked any game as much as CMBO. -Tiger ...*hears the spray can of lock-tight being shaken* [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 01-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Maximus wrote: That's the way to tell'em! Feed'em a bunch of Quantom Physics or something. LOL! LOL Chehehe ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 I just think Gunny Bunny needs to go back to his N64 and play Mario Cart or something similar. Because obviously, the man, or do I say so the kid, really needs to get a grip on 3D engines these days. In fact, we aren't saying anything different that BTS has said inthe past and yet he doesn't wanna seem to listen to reason. He's not, as Judge Judy says, "receiving". He just keeps blabbing his mouth without hearing what we have to say, which is in fact what BTS has said several times before. Note to everybody that knows me on here. These are the kinds of people and discussions that really get me irritated when they bitch and complain, bitch and complain, but then when we try to explain to them the reasoning behind the issue and they don't listen and keep pushing, then you can see why I get a little irritated. It's like "How many times can we say the same thing?" These are the sort of discussions that make my on-line personality the way it is. But when you kindly give the answer and the person accepts it, then I grant them "all the power". ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlh1138 Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Gee - I've been being nice in my posts up to now, all 8 of them I think - so, just to not be this time - as a 'newbie', outside observer, let me just note what this guy said. (And yes, some of you have been clear that you are posting stuff not so much about what he said this time, but about what he's said in the past - even looking up his record - yikes - ) Anyway, he quotes an article that says '..all honesty the graphics are quite a bit behind the bleeding edge.' and then says it looks like other people feel like him. One can assume he means in that CMs graphics are a bit, or quite a bit behind the bleeding edge. Well - guys - are you thinking CM graphics are not behind the bleeding edge? I kind of think they are - and there has been many posts here that help me understand why. (Pushing pixels and all that) But I guess the point is - so what? BTS doesn't advertise CM as being on the 'bleeding edge' (whatever or wherever the hell that it), I didn't buy it cause I thought it was, and I bet none of you did either. 'Cept maybe the guy that started this thread. Maybe I'm missing the point, and you all think it is 'on the bleeding edge' - I just think its the best, by far, wargame I ever bought or played. I like the graphics, (many thanks to all you mod makers out there), and I wouldn't be offended if BTS made them even better. I'm also not offended that somebody is all upset about the graphics. Geez - people are all upset about all kinds of things. Some of you are upset that GB is upset. So... my smart ass remark to contribute to this whole thing is. .. Get a life - move on - practice deep breathing - get real crazy and be a little forgiving. Hey, this is fun My best to all (including that misguided, ungrateful, not with the program GB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by rlh1138: Gee - I've been being nice in my posts up to now, all 8 of them I think - so, just to not be this time - as a 'newbie', outside observer, let me just note what this guy said. (And yes, some of you have been clear that you are posting stuff not so much about what he said this time, but about what he's said in the past - even looking up his record - yikes - ) Anyway, he quotes an article that says '..all honesty the graphics are quite a bit behind the bleeding edge.' and then says it looks like other people feel like him. One can assume he means in that CMs graphics are a bit, or quite a bit behind the bleeding edge. Well - guys - are you thinking CM graphics are not behind the bleeding edge? I kind of think they are - and there has been many posts here that help me understand why. (Pushing pixels and all that) But I guess the point is - so what? BTS doesn't advertise CM as being on the 'bleeding edge' (whatever or wherever the hell that it), I didn't buy it cause I thought it was, and I bet none of you did either. 'Cept maybe the guy that started this thread. Maybe I'm missing the point, and you all think it is 'on the bleeding edge' - I just think its the best, by far, wargame I ever bought or played. I like the graphics, (many thanks to all you mod makers out there), and I wouldn't be offended if BTS made them even better. I'm also not offended that somebody is all upset about the graphics. Geez - people are all upset about all kinds of things. Some of you are upset that GB is upset. So... my smart ass remark to contribute to this whole thing is. .. Get a life - move on - practice deep breathing - get real crazy and be a little forgiving. Hey, this is fun My best to all (including that misguided, ungrateful, not with the program GB) No one is upset really (boy we can show you upset in other threads), but in fact the game pushes a number of polygons that the average CM customer can handle using the machine they have. CM2 will push the number of polygons that the average machine of that time can handle. Note in both cases we say average, because marketers do not want to leave to much money on the table by excluding to many customers. GB saw a screen shot for a WW2 version of Quake, a FPS game, and thought that the near photorealistic images in that game should be repeated in CM. We are pointed out to him for several weeks that he just does not understand how computers work. What Quake can do with the number of polygons it pushes has no relation to what the CM engine has to do, since it has a much longer horizon, which is why most FPS games are played in what are essentially rooms, even when outdoors. In other words, what he wants is impossible now and might not be possible in 5 years. It is not possible on a 35 thousand dollar machine except with an overnight render. Now that said, you are right that no one should pay much attention to him due to his lack of relevant posts and crusade for some bizarre "freedom of speech" annex in Usenet. However, many people such as yourself lurk the board, and reading his uneducated opinion presented as some sort of fact might take it uncritically. Better to have someone on this board reply to these things, although at this point replying 40 times to someone who never reads anyhting is starting to tick people off. At some point he should make a good argument or quit spamming the board with the same old thing over and over (note his 6 repostings under the same topic of the new Usenet thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 I say ban him. He's a waist of bandwidth that BTS have to pay for. Never once has he said anything useful, and his ads for his forum are a joke, his very behaviour ensures i'll never visit PeterNZ ------------------ "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious" - Oscar Wilde "Don't F*CK with Johnny Cash!" - Chupacabra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Those pics you put up were simply fine. My settings are the same, with a Voodoo 3, but I don't get nearly the resolution. Any ideas you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I checked out your website but it was mostly under construction. It would be pleasing to have graphics as good as the pics you show. They would add to the game. But the current graphics (contrary to Gunny Bunny's opinion) do not detract from the game. ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 OOPS ! I meant to address my reply to TOM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Yep, they CM graphics may be "dated" and behind the tech curve, but the game is EXCELLENT and addictive. I have a closet full of graphically gorgeous games that I've run once or twice and would now happily take 25 cents on the dollar for. CM is the first game that has led me to take Steel Panthers off of my HD. Personally, I love the graphics and I find the suspension of disbelief almost total once the tracers start flying. And it's very customizeable, as well. Too bad some people feel differently, but that's OK too as long as their opinions do not materially and negatively affect BTS's efforts to design and sell this series. Clearly a labor of love, this game is dearly defended by those enamored of it and remains an unsightly oddity to those who don't. They can go play something else, perhaps I can interest them in some used graphically gorgeous and hardly used software? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Lads - I think GB has exposed himself in the last thread as somebody who basically has no life, and is a sad and pathetic little git. DNFTT. I would also recommend that BTS bans him. His point has been made, it is the only one he has, it has been comprehensively refuted and it is getting everybody worked up. It is also bad publicity for new visitors to the forum. This is the second time in less than a week that he comes with his pathetic whinge. JMO. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: Lads - I think GB has exposed himself in the last thread as somebody who basically has no life, and is a sad and pathetic little git. DNFTT. I would also recommend that BTS bans him. His point has been made, it is the only one he has, it has been comprehensively refuted and it is getting everybody worked up. It is also bad publicity for new visitors to the forum. This is the second time in less than a week that he comes with his pathetic whinge. JMO. I think rather than ban him, someone should talk on the side to him. I see him as either Manieri reposting again in a different form (in that case BAN em) or as a 15 year old with an Internet connection. A 15 year old may be capable of being reasoned with, and may indeed fit into the community after it become apparent that he is not using adult forms of communication. After all, 2 years older than that and I was directing my first national television show, my father was headed for assignment to Vietnam, and my grandfather was running his own farm with a wife and his first child on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by Slapdragon: After all, 2 years older than that and I was directing my first national television show, my father was headed for assignment to Vietnam, and my grandfather was running his own farm with a wife and his first child on the way. Obviously your family seems to be mature at an early age OTOH - some people never grow up. I would like to agree with you, but won't because you seem to have a lot more trust in mankind than I do. Anyways, it is BTS' decision, I doubt they'll do it, and I can understand why they would not. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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