Pud Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 I keep finding in my games that US inf seem to break moral far more often than Brit troops. In a recent game 2 Full squads of veteran US Engineers in a house came under smallarms fire ( from a couple of sources 200m+ ranges) and began to falter, by the second round they had broken. by turn 3 both teams were on the run for the hills. Only started taking loses when broken and running across the open. In my other current game I have a one half of a split squad of Brit Reg Rifles (out of C&C) come under fire from 45m away from 2 SMG squads. After loosing 4 out of the 5 it was still just pinned. this happens everytime I play US troops. Half of them will break and run, but it rarely happens with British no matter how bad things seem to get. Is it something in the tea? Is this some freak of luck (to happen so often) or do US troops have a tendancy to run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 It is my understanding that there are no nationality modifiers in the game. Hence, it should not be possible for US troops to suffer morale penalties in comparison to British troops or those from other nationalities, provided they have the same experience levels and commander bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 better training and higher discipline amongst Brits in Real Life ™ ?? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jgdpzr: It is my understanding that there are no nationality modifiers in the game. Hence, it should not be possible for US troops to suffer morale penalties in comparison to British troops or those from other nationalities, provided they have the same experience levels and commander bonuses.<hr></blockquote> Good point BUT I do think that while BTS has told us Many times that there are no nationality modifiers in the game, the Brit infantry none the less displays much better morale and discipline than their US counterparts. interesting to mention though that BTS has told us there are no no nationality modifiers in the game, I would say in this case there is a morale modifier. -tom w [ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 Pud, Yes, it is all luck. Imagine it as a roll of the die. Sometimes you roll a sixes several times, and sometimes all you get are snake eyes. You seem to be getting a "snake eye" streak when playing as the Amis, thats all. In most games I play, the Amis actually preform better thanks to their superior numbers and firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 Pud, first of all, yoou understand that there is a global morale setting, that HQs have morale bonus (or not) etc? Then, I think the differences between squads with few or many men may be more significant than people think. Big squads are nice when you do hand-to-hand fighting, but it might be that a 12-men squad suffers the same morale effect from loosing two than a 8-men squad. If so, you can break a 40-men US platoon with the same losses than a 34-men Birit platoon (PIAT and mortar not in front). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted November 22, 2001 Author Share Posted November 22, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf: ..but it might be that a 12-men squad suffers the same morale effect from loosing two than a 8-men squad. If so, you can break a 40-men US platoon with the same losses than a 34-men Birit platoon (PIAT and mortar not in front).<hr></blockquote> ..but the brit had 4 killed out of the 5 compared to 0 out of 12 in squad A and 1 out of 12 in squad B. I would expect the moral to (should) be based on % casualties. 4 out of 5 should be worse than 4 out of 12. A squad should be paniced for sure (%80 casualties) and the 12 man team should (the 12 man team was also veterans in my case) be perhaps shaken (33% casualties). This was not an isolated case, it happens all the time, when ever i play US. Perhaps my CPU has one of those Floating Point Errors in its architecture PS Global moral in the US game is higher than in to Brit game, in case the thought is that aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 Geez, most of the time we have people complaining about occasions when the game is unrealistic. Here we have it perfectly simulating historical reality and people still whine and whinge. Sheesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: ... the Brit infantry none the less displays much better morale and discipline than their US counterparts... <hr></blockquote> :eek: You are in all diferent world from mine Tell us... what more can you "see" in the stars ? :cool: [ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 It must be those Regimental Sergeant Majors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pud: Is it something in the tea? <hr></blockquote> There's part of your answer. The rest of the answer is how it's brewed and how soon before a battle that it's served, but our British friends probably won't tell you the details. That's their little secret. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Half of them will break and run, but it rarely happens with British no matter how bad things seem to get. <hr></blockquote> It depends on the situation you put them into. I'd had games, playing as Germans, where I've sent the Brits broken & running into any which direction to where they can find a scrap of cover, in the space of one turn. And I've had some of my own Brit squads, in other games, go into routed state with no more than a couple of casualties. So---nope, no nationality modifier as I've seen so far. However, I first thought your topic was instead to ask if the USA, or "us" as a gaming group, were "moral." The answer to both, of course, is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 You are just running a cold streak with the Americans, I think. I'm still learning about infantry morale every day, after playing for over 6 months. There seems to be helluva lot of factors to count ín. My findings: Basic unit morale. Volume of fire, regardless of casualties. Casualties. Global Morale. Experience. Cover. HQ's. Proximity to own troops. Proximity to enemy troops (quite important). The phase of the Moon. Mars. Canada. If my Pasta Marinara turned out to be good. Did I get any during last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 all i know is that in squad leader the germans and british 1st line troops had a morale of 7 (broken morale of 7 also); and the americans 1st liners had a morale of 6 (better unbroken of 8). so when avalon hill made that game, for whatever reasons they said in a way "they will break down faster, but once they break they are better at staying alive than the others" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison: all i know is that in squad leader the germans and british 1st line troops had a morale of 7 (broken morale of 7 also); and the americans 1st liners had a morale of 6 (better unbroken of 8). so when avalon hill made that game, for whatever reasons they said in a way "they will break down faster, but once they break they are better at staying alive than the others"<hr></blockquote> That sounds like a nationality modifier to me! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: That sounds like a nationality modifier to me! -tom w<hr></blockquote> and it was, but i have never seen any real strong evidense of this being apparent in CM. in squad leader it was a pain in the butt to have them break faster, but i would sometimes say that the amis in CM are stronger! i think it really just comes down to luck of the dice and who has the best heart bonus (if they are in C%C) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 What you are describing more specifically, Chad, is Advanced Squad Leader or ASL. In the original SL, US regular squads were "6" in both regular & broken order, but immune from "desperation morale" as applied for all other nationalities. With ASL, that immunity was traded by making the US unit broken-side morale one higher than for its unbroken state; or for 1st-line squads, two higher (to "8"). Per the footnotes from the ASL manual regarding nationality distinctions: <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Nationality Distinctions vary troop capabilities from one nation to another, and while patently unfair in their application of stereotyped and over-simplified traits of all troops of a country without exception, nonetheless do serve to give the game much of its flavor.<hr></blockquote> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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