Strength of mg42 and mpp44

[mg42 gunner]

I am mad at how weak the mp44 was made 34 damgage at 100m is pitufill for the most powerful infantary gun of ww2 it shoulde be in the 40's . My second beef is that the mg42 strength is good but it never hits any thing is that realstic or just a goof please repliy!

[Maximus]

Oh boy yet another MG thread.

The MG42 does in fact hit stuff. It just hardly ever shows any casualties because they have to be confirmed kills to be credited. But trust me, they do work. Just be on the receiving end of MG fire. You'll hear your men scream.

The MP44 is probably over-rated in terms of just how good it was. All of the firepower values in CM have been highly researched and cross-compared to other weapons.

[mg42 gunner]

I believe you about the mg42 but i am skeptical about your opinion abou t the mp44. It fires a 7.92 round automaticly more powerful than the thompson but still does less damage some one throw some statistics at me plz.

[offtaskagain]

The damage thing is more about rate of fire and accuracy. Amount of damage done by the actual round doesn't matter, since it's still a casualty. Hence the MG-42 having a 155 damage at 40m because of it's huge ROF and great accuracy for a HMG. The .50 cal MG doesn't get any bonus because of the size of it's round, it's lower than MG-42 because of the much lower rate of fire. The MP-44 is fired in bursts of rounds because of a much more limited ammo supply. Steve and Charles, the developers, have plenty of hands on experience with these toys so the ratings are pretty realistic.

[Cybeq]

Isn't the "damage" rating you are talking about actually the firepower rating? Like was stated earlier a casualty is a casualty so the caliber of the bullet doesn't matter. Accuracy and volume of incoming bullets (at a given range) is what counts most. When evaluated this way I think the MP44 is rated right about where it should be in respect to the other small arms.

[Andrew H.]

Note that the German SMG has a firepower rating of 36 at 40 meters. Not as good as the Thompson, but still better than the MP 44, despite the fact that the German SMG just fired 9mm pistol ammunition.

I think that the increased firepower for the SMGs at very close range just reflects that it was easier to use these smaller caliber weapons to spray bullets around when you're close to the enemy. Remember that you are typically targetting not just one individual, but different members of an enemy team or squad.

This same logic seems to apply to the MG 42. Note that the MG 42, which fires a larger shell than the MP 44 with a higher ROF, only has a FP rating of 20 at 40 meters. This, I assume, reflects the difficulty of using the somewhat unwieldy weapon to spray bullets around at close range.

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

The .50 cal MG doesn't get any bonus because of the size of it's round, it's lower than MG-42 because of the much lower rate of fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that in game terms the MG42 is more effective due to its high ROF. However, I would expect Ma Deuce to be more suppressive (in game terms) than it is due to the weight of its round, especially against troops in buildings. It could/can actually tear a building apart. I would also expect an increase in suppression when firing against troops in wooded areas as branches and small trees topple.

[mg42 gunner]

If what you guys say is true then why do they even bother to give a fire power rating?. Is that just to show what the chance of killing or maiming a unit is or is it purley included for a informational fact ? . Also for using the mg42 is it better to use the target command or the area target command plz replie!

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

I agree that in game terms the MG42 is more effective due to its high ROF. However, I would expect Ma Deuce to be more suppressive (in game terms) than it is due to the weight of its round, especially against troops in buildings. It could/can actually tear a building apart. I would also expect an increase in suppression when firing against troops in wooded areas as branches and small trees topple.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 30.06 class round used by the MG-42 is certainly capable of tearing down trees and small buildings. Especially in the quantity fired by it.

[Thermopylae]

Mr. Gunner, The firepower rating of a given weapon represents its lethality at any given range. This includes accuracy and rate of fire. Thus rifles pretty much even out a fair rating over time, SMGs kick in to uselesness at anything but close range, but in there they kill easily, and squad light weapons generally provide a big ol chunk of FP at all ranges. Think of every point of firepower being put out as increasing the odds that the target in question will take casualties. Thus if you fire with a combined firepower of 218 thanks to short range and having some automatic weapons on hand, the target is more likely to take casualties, and more of them, than if you fired with only a combined FP of 87, which would be the equivalent of medium range fire from a typical squad.

The MP44 is correctly represented in this game. As the first assualt rifle, it can pour out fire with decent accuracy and a limited sustained rate of fire. As such, it is useful out to ~125 meters, after which its accuracy fades, and it doesn't have the ammunition supply to to compensate by raking the area. Thus the firepower takes a sharp drop.

[Ben Galanti]

The MP-44 was already bumped up a bit in firepower in one of the patches, I believe it was after this thread:

MP-44 vs SMG discrepancies

Again, as other folks have mentioned. The firepower number isn't just the amount of damage done when a bullet hits, but covers rate of fire and accuracy, among other things. There is more detail in the above thread (specifically, read Charles' posts)

Ben

[mg42 gunner]

Hey thanks Ben for the link set my opinions straight. The mp44 should be raised to 40 at 100m sounds reasonable and everything else seems fine as far as range goes. Maybe some of you are wondering why i care so much about the value of the mp44 it is because I play a half life mod called day of defeat ww2 and the axis heavey class is armed with the mp44. I have gotten many kills with it and I just wanted to seem my fav gun reprrestented right.

[mg42 gunner]

If ANY OF YOU NO ANY THING ABOUT THE MP44 Changing IN COMBAT MISSION 2 PLEASE REPLIE your posts are appreciated!!!

[Thermopylae]

I'm beginning to think this is a troll name.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

However, I would expect Ma Deuce to be more suppressive (in game terms) than it is due to the weight of its round, especially against troops in buildings. It could/can actually tear a building apart. I would also expect an increase in suppression when firing against troops in wooded areas as branches and small trees topple.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really... the MG42 can do the same thing. The NATO 7.62 round can punch through most building walls and certainly through tree branches... so it stands to reason that the German 7.92 can as well. Match that with its rate of fire, and you have some serious destruction. Also, the sound of the MG42 (actually, I've only experienced the sound of the MG1... same gun) is much more impressive than the M2

[Fishu]

MG42 gunner,

That 7.92mm is 7.92x33mm and rifle (the mauser) round is 7.92x57mm.

So at close distance, tommy might be much more damaging when hits than MP44.. (so I would believe)

although, MP44 is superior in accuracy by far.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Not really... the MG42 can do the same thing. The NATO 7.62 round can punch through most building walls and certainly through tree branches... so it stands to reason that the German 7.92 can as well. Match that with its rate of fire, and you have some serious destruction. Also, the sound of the MG42 (actually, I've only experienced the sound of the MG1... same gun) is much more impressive than the M2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hell, my crappy little .22 punches clean through 24" diamter trees. I think most bullets can penetrate over 100" of wood. The MG-42 would be alot of fun to shot at trees. I bet it literally could cut them straight in half with it's immense ROF.

All this reminds of a show I saw on the History Channel a couple months ago. It was showing some school for journalists who are travelling to war zones. They started by dispelling the movie myths about cover. They set up a car door then plinked it with an AK-74. It flew up in the air filled with holes. Then they reduced a brick wall to a fine red powder hanging in the air. Trees didn't hold up to well either. Keep in mind the AK fires a short 7.62 round, in the same power range as an MP-44.

[JasonC]

The shorter MP44 round has a muzzle energy of around 1500 Joules, vs. around 3700 Joules for the full rifle-type round fired from an MG42 or K98. If anybody cares...

[Sitzkrieg]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Hell, my crappy little .22 punches clean through 24" diamter trees. I think most bullets can penetrate over 100" of wood. The MG-42 would be alot of fun to shot at trees. I bet it literally could cut them straight in half with it's immense ROF.

All this reminds of a show I saw on the History Channel a couple months ago. It was showing some school for journalists who are travelling to war zones. They started by dispelling the movie myths about cover. They set up a car door then plinked it with an AK-74. It flew up in the air filled with holes. Then they reduced a brick wall to a fine red powder hanging in the air. Trees didn't hold up to well either. Keep in mind the AK fires a short 7.62 round, in the same power range as an MP-44.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the AK-74 (if that's what they were using) uses a 5.45mm cartridge, similar to the M-16 5.56mm (.223 caliber). If that small cartridge was doing that kinda damage, OUCH! Hate to see the 7.62mm AK-47 at work.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

I believe the AK-74 (if that's what they were using) uses a 5.45mm cartridge, similar to the M-16 5.56mm (.223 caliber). If that small cartridge was doing that kinda damage, OUCH! Hate to see the 7.62mm AK-47 at work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must have gotten the 47 and 74 mixed up, because I'm pretty sure it was firing 7.62. At that range though the 5.45 would still do plenty of damage.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

I believe the AK-74 (if that's what they were using) uses a 5.45mm cartridge, similar to the M-16 5.56mm (.223 caliber). If that small cartridge was doing that kinda damage, OUCH! Hate to see the 7.62mm AK-47 at work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 5.45mm, because of hydrostatic shock (the fluids of the body splash away at higher than the speed of sound from the bullet) and energy dumping (the 5.45 becomes unstable in tissue and tumbles like the 5.56 used to do before the SS109 updates) is more deadly than the 7.62x39mm round.

[Triumvir]

The beauty of firepower demonstrations is that they teach you _exactly_ how much to respect your weapons. A 50 round 7.62 NATO belt can cut a nice ragged foot wide hole through a 6-inch concrete wall.

However, it is possible that a pistol round may be stopped by a car door, depending on the round. Not all the movie myths are completely ungrounded.

[Gen-x87H]

MG42: I also play DOD alot. I always run around as the heavy German and lay waste to the allied players. I would take that game for what it is. A game. It is fun and all but the historical accuracy in my opnion is a bit off. Players can run around much much too fast which leads to many unrealistic situations. Also I laugh at the garand in that game. It is a semi auto sniper weapon.

I must admit with the latest patch that the MP40 appears to be more lethal than the last time I played the game in May. I am wondering when the MG42s and .50 cals are going to show up in that game

I used to frequent the communist swingset and funnyfarms servers. With the Mp44 I usually would get a 3-1 or on a good day 4-1 kill ratios. If it is omaha beach that can reach 7 or 8-1 kill ratios depending on how I use my ammo Many a time I would go running the gantlet with my knife a swinging cause Im out of ammo LOL!

Gen

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

...the MG42 can do the same thing. The NATO 7.62 round can punch through most building walls and certainly through tree branches... so it stands to reason that the German 7.92 can as well...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not disputing the fact that the MG42 can damage/destroy buildings or topple small trees and branches. My point is that the hitting power of the M2’s slug, due to its size, should suppress those on the receiving end more, due to the collateral damage it creates. Suppression caused by collateral damage would not be limited to wood and metal splinters and other typical damage, but also include the noise of the impacting heavy slugs, smoke, dust and the general chaos of being on the receiving end of a .50 cal attack. Take a look at this photo comparison of slug sizes. L-R: .50cal, 9mm, 7.62mm.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ]

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

I'm not disputing the fact that the MG42 can damage/destroy buildings or topple small trees and branches. My point is that the hitting power of the M2’s slug, due to its size, should suppress those on the receiving end more, due to the collateral damage it creates. Suppression caused by collateral damage would not be limited to wood and metal splinters and other typical damage, but also include the noise of the impacting heavy slugs, smoke, dust and the general chaos of being on the receiving end of a .50 cal attack. Take a look at this photo comparison of slug sizes. L-R: .50cal, 9mm, 7.62mm....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Supression is caused by the supressee worrying about getting hit. This is largely due to sound and the sight of impacts. If you have ever been under fire, you will recall the destinct sound that rounds make when they pass near by (that nasty crack ). Take that and multiply it by the ROF of the MG42, or see the rounds plowing the dirt near you, and its gonna scare the livin' hell out of you. The impact of the M2 is impressive, but the ROF of the MG42 is more impressive... and that's what is going to weigh the heaviest in suppression