Boba_Fett Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 I don't quite understand why a MG42 LMG unit can't run. SS riffle squad has the same gun in their group and it can run. Seems silly that I can't make a separate LMG unit run like a riffle squad with the same gun. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schugger Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 I would have liked to post some links to threads where this and other questions regarding MGs have been discussed. Unfortunately, the mighty search engine does not work for me. Maybe it works for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba_Fett Posted April 18, 2001 Author Share Posted April 18, 2001 Uh Oh..it doesn't..oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Boba- I believe the answer goes something like this: 8 prospective ammo humpers --------------------------- = Fast Speed LMG with X rounds of ammo 1 prospective ammo humper --------------------------- = Medium Speed LMG with X rounds of ammo or somefink. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinterbottom Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 uhm...well..if how we used to handle MG teams is anything to go by, then I will have to disagree with dalem here. Ever since I first got my hands on this fine piece of software the "we-can't-run-with-the-light-MG" issue have been one of my pet peeves. I am sure BTS have a perfectly good explanation on why and such. And I am confident that they made that compromise for perfectly good reasons. However......... your standard light MG team consists of 3 persons.. the gunner, the assistant and the MG team leader. (Which is actually the XO of the rifle squad) They have their ammunition. The rifle squad have theirs. So in fact, you will normally allways have 3 ammo carriers to feed the MG. There are several reasons for this, mind you. One of them is to make sure that the MG team can operate as independently of the rifle squad as possible. Let us say that you want the MG team on either extremes of your flank. Can you imagine how that would work if the rest of the squad had a substantial part of their ammunition? And believe you me, the other guys are handling a "few" pounds themselves without having to carry the extra load of the MG team as well. Within the MG team the gunner carries the least ammo, the assistant the most while the MG team leader is somewhere in between there. With this loadout the MG team *can* and *will* run. And yes, I have seen it done. And I have done it myself under extreme circumstances. They will not casually stroll down the line while making sure they are taking their sweet time. (seems to me that they are anyway.. ) So I say a heartfelt NOOO! to the casual light MG team out for a somewhat brisk sunday stroll. I'll get off my soap box now. Mr.Winterbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrWinterbottom: uhm...well..if how we used to handle MG teams is anything to go by..... ....your standard light MG team consists of 3 persons.. the gunner, the assistant and the MG team leader. (Which is actually the XO of the rifle squad) They have their ammunition. The rifle squad have theirs. So in fact, you will normally allways have 3 ammo carriers to feed the MG. There are several reasons for this, mind you. One of them is to make sure that the MG team can operate as independently of the rifle squad as possible. Let us say that you want the MG team on either extremes of your flank. Can you imagine how that would work if the rest of the squad had a substantial part of their ammunition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In action, I think this is actually how it worked. I know the Commonwealth infantry squads shared out ammunition among the entire rifle section - every man in the 10 man section carried two or more mags for the Bren gun. I've seen photos of German squads with the ammo distributed amongst all the riflemen - at least on the march. If you have a specific source that states that the Germans did it differently, it would be more definitive than either you or I using outside experience to "settle" the question. (One minor nit, also - I think you were thinking of the term ASL (Assistant Squad Leader) or 2 i/c (second in charge) instead of the term XO (Executive Officer) which would not apply to a squad-sized unit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinterbottom Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I've seen photos of German squads with the ammo distributed amongst all the riflemen - at least on the march. If you have a specific source that states that the Germans did it differently, it would be more definitive than either you or I using outside experience to "settle" the question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, can only back it up with my own experience. And yes, I have also seen pictures of german personnel on the march with ammo. But as you yourself stated, that was under march. I really hate to nitpick, but under actual combat conditions I have a hard time imagining a squad trying to pass the ammo down to the MG team. The thought of having the MG "tied" down with the rest of the squad when it really could have been put to good use further out to the flank for example gives me the shivers. It just doesn't sit right with me at all. But then again, what do I know? I wasn't there so for all I know that was the thing back then. And I am not trying to "settle" anything. I am merely trying to air my little view on what I think is overly leisurely light MG teams. By all means though, feel free to disagree. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (One minor nit, also - I think you were thinking of the term ASL (Assistant Squad Leader) or 2 i/c (second in charge) instead of the term XO (Executive Officer) which would not apply to a squad-sized unit.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I wasn't thinking of any specific term at all. Was just trying to illustrate how we used to do it. And I still think that the whole concept of "non-running" light MG teams is quite odd. But I for one still like the game and will quite happily game on with it even with "limitations" like that. Mr.Winterbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 I think the Real question here is "Why can't the LMG lay down some proper grazing fire while running and have its firepower applied to multiple split quads and basically grease those gum-chewers like it does in my favourite FPS". Hell, Lara Croft would dump this piece of crap MG42 in a second. [ 04-18-2001: Message edited by: Goanna ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Well, lets not stop with the LMG, why can't the 60mm, 81mm, MMG, HMG..etc, all do a short sprint like a zook team or equivalent. The rational that allowed a zook to short sprint and not these others is incredibly bias. They have enough men, and remember, they do this day in day out 24/7. What might be difficult for you would be normal to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesreidau Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Short sprints: remember the units also have to setup and desetup their kit each time they move. MGs Running: there have been many long and detailed discussions on this. Bassically it comes down to the fact that while they can move quickly, they can't move as fast as a squad running, so they're not allowed to run. There's more about it, but i for one don't want to see running MGs. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Something I would like to see answered since the first mg42lmg can't run thread: why the escort squad (7 men, 2 lmg) can run and the two men team can't. The escort squad has 80 units of ammo, while the two men team has 25. How much ammo the gunner can carry when the team is down to one man? 9 units, which means the assistent have 16 units. In the escort squad, 5 guys have 12.4 units of mg42 ammo, their own weapons and more 40 units of ammo and they can run! Something is wrong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Give it a break!!! God all I hear on this board lately is how something is modelled incorrectly or how someone else has a better idea how to do it. These discussions are not cut and dry, they are more opinion than fact. Here is my take on it, drawn strongly from the book I am currently reading: Guy Sajer's "Forgotten Soldier". In it, the narrator is the assistant to the squads MG'er. He calls it a Spandau, which I am assuming is the manufacturer of the LMG42. Anyway, they manage, with great difficulty, to keep up with the squad to which they are attached, sprinting and running when necessary. I would guess that part of the reason for this ABSTRACTED rule is that since LMG teams are NOT ATTACHED to a squad per say, they would be more hesitant to break into an all out run. Their purpose is to stay behind the leading edge and support the infantry, so even WANTING them to run is a little gamey in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Previous thread (of almost the same name ) Why can't LMG42's run? Ben (go searchanauts!) [ 04-18-2001: Message edited by: Ben Galanti ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Guy Sajer and the forgotten soldier is an argument in itself. http://grossdeutschland.freehosting.net/sajer.htm Spandau was an Allied term for any German machinegun that happened to be shooting at them, usually applied to the MG 42, though. Like the term Schmeisser, I don't think the Germans used it themselves but am open to correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinterbottom Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 I agree with Fangorn. To have the riflesquads light MG being able to run, while the independent light MG cannot strikes me as odd. Especially since I do know for a fact that MG teams are able to run and keep up with the riflesquad. (as stated earlier..yawn) Well..I will give this a rest for now... But seems that the issue is atleast somewhat controversial. Which is a good thing. Mr.Winterbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Wow M.D. fascinating articles! Well, I LOVE the book and I am going to give Guy Sajer the benefit of the doubt, because it certainly seems true-to-life to me. God I would hate to be in an artillery barrage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba_Fett Posted April 18, 2001 Author Share Posted April 18, 2001 Wow, this topic really got you guys excited I agree that one shouldn't pay too much attention to things like this but I wasn't asking this in order to complain. I just thought that one of you guys could tell me a simple reason for this as some of you seem to know eveything worth knowing (and more) about WW2. I wasn't able to check out the earlier topics about this issue as my search engine won't work. Oh well, I let it rest. Thx for trying to help anyway :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlankWithANailIn Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Ive read that book "Forgoten Soldier", In the bit about the Spandau they don't run anywhere from what I remember. They crawl out into no-mans land in the dark, set up the gun, and then the Germans attack. They fire the gun a bit and then they run away without the gun or something, no running with the gun/ammo at all (I could be wrong, I read it over three years ago). Good book though, I like the way that he only fired his gun once in the whole of the time he was in the Army, kinda adds weight to the "Only 10% of troops fired their guns" argument. Plank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Great articles on Sajer and “The forgotten Soldier”. Personally I would have to cast my vote for Nash’s defense of Sajer. Much of Edwin L. Kennedy’s “powerful” evidence suggesting Sajer is a fraud seems nit-picking and lacking real substance. In the words of Nash “To claim that such a mistake on Sajer's part invalidates his story is straining at a gnat and ignoring the elephant.” Mud-slining is easy...making a reputation based upon attacking the credibility of others, when solid evidence is clearly not present, is a sorry course of action. My three cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 Well, in the part I was thinking of, which I read a few days ago, was when they retreat from the town of (?)Kropotov, and he meets back up with his friend Hals after figuring them for dead. There were a few scenes where they run from building to building, and finally intop the woods, before regrouping and retreating in a more orderly fashion. Sajer remarks on how surprised he is that Hals was able to keep his gun through the hasty withdrawel. My point (as far as this argument goes) is that it IS possible to run with the gun when you are part of a squad, but when you are an independant team, you will move with more caution and hence, slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinterbottom Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 I think it is safe to assume that all can agree to disagree on this particular subject. Mr.Winterbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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