i am a little worried

[crumply]

is bf going to go the way of atomic?

same game repeated in a series of what are more or less "add-ons" and marginal technical improvements? (the ai in cc was funny as hell--after five tries, it only got worse).

in cm2, will a tank still switch target to a panicked crew, and expose it's flank to the enemy tank that just popped smoke?

processing power allowing more complex ai routines should be available by time cm2 will be released. will the routines improve? (and i understand ai is hard as hell to do).

i really hope it is something more than new data and textures.

[russellmz]

cm2 will have the necessary research for russian front, after that, a new cm engine!

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[crumply]

a new engine at cm3? that sounds fair enough.

[Guest barrold713]

If this is a serious question and not a troll, I would have to ask whether you are playing the latest version of the game. BTS has gone beyond the level of support I have ever experienced in my 16 years of computer gaming and has addressed many of these types of issues in a very expedient manner.

Some have been tweaked and others left alone with the explanation provided by one of the moderators or designers.

At this stage of development your query is like worrying your kid is going to marry an ugly mate before its conception.

On an unrelated topic, I took the opportunity of doing a search that brought up a great number of posts that showed the interaction BTS had with the people on this board and the input and assistance that everyone contributed during the design process. At this point, the number of intereted parties to the development of CM2 has no doubt grown exponentially. The success of CMBO has spawned a pool of eager testers that will be able to volunteer invaluable feedback to the designers.

IIRC BTS is probably not going to reinvent the wheel for CM2 but considering the advancement of the base level computer most people have today is significantly more powerful than at the inception of CM, it stands to reason that any number of features in Steve and Charles wish list might be achieveable in CM2.

I trust these guys enough to want to pre-order and that is a unique tribute to the confidence I have not only with BTS, but also the fabulous community of mod makers who have enhanced the look of CM tremendously.

Worrying is futile. You might get disassimilated and I have heard that it's very painful.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[Guest MantaRay]

barrold173 wrote: "IIRC BTS is probably not going to reinvent the wheel for CM2"

Ya, but they are going to invent the T-34 track.

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

Click now for shelter from the Peng thread

New Site of the PLA:Rugged Defense Group Ladder

The Red Army Mirror

[Vanir]

Originally posted by crumply:

a new engine at cm3? that sounds fair enough.

Actually, no. Steve has stated that the CMII engine will likely be developed concurrently with CM3. That would suggest the CMII engine will debut with CM 4.

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What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve

[Guest Germanboy]

I am absolutely not worried - BTS have deferred work on CM2 for eight months to address issues in CMBO. They have consistently listened to their customers and picked up a lot of things that were brought up by customers who have no interest whatever in the company, other than as a supplier of the best tactical computer wargame ever. I have never had any dealings with Atomic, but from what I have heard they have done neither of these things.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Flipper]

well I am not worried that cm2 will be good but face fact's it will not garner the same

enthusiasim or high mark's (from game reviewers) that the original did very few if any games do.

[Guest barrold713]

I would have to respectfully disagree with Flipper on his pessimistic outlook for the response CM2 will garner on the basis that it is way too premature.

BTS is not hyping CM2 as the revolutionary change the world game of 2002. Therefore it is expected to be just as advertised which is the adaption of what has been learned thus far and the incorporation of whatever features can be crammed into the current engine. The requests for items that should be included in CM2 have been legion and I am confident that any number of these will find their way into the new game. The top priority for CM2's enhancements will be to ensure the simulation of East Front combat is accurate and as realistic as is currently possible.

The point being that BTS is not raising unrealistic expectations, which is certainly a primary reason "sequels" are not as enthusiastically recieved as the original. Considering their track record, it is quite reasonable to assume that Steve, Charles, and crew will bring forth a quality product that will faithfully translate the CM experience to the war in the east.

Having been quite disappointed with the Close Combat series when it went from CC2 to CC3, I can see how a certain amount of cynicism develops in computer gamers. However, the fact remains that BTS has, through their efforts, more than earned the benefit of the doubt. Barring a serious disruption in the brainwaves of S and C, I predict CM2 will be positively received by gamers and reviewers as a proper evolution of the series.

As for CM3 and beyond, if the new engine is developed and it doesn't bring anything significantly different, I can see where reviewers might find fault and probably label the series as "dated". At this time, it should not be a concern to anyone with reasonably capable mental faculties.

BDH

PS: This post is primarily to exercise my brain as I am sort of disabled until I have surgery for a herniated disc and the vicadin makes me fuzzy. I am passionate about CM and tend to man the barricades when I read these types of threads. Please take this post in the spirit in which it was typed.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[Cleavis]

I don't know about you guys, but i think that the russian front would suck, as i hate snowy maps, and the russian tanks annoy me... i hated cc3 but loved cc2...

[Mlapanzer]

Originally posted by Cleavis:

I don't know about you guys, but i think that the russian front would suck, as i hate snowy maps, and the russian tanks annoy me... i hated cc3 but loved cc2...

Ah if war could only be fought on the French Riviera and Carribian Islands Mon. I might even join up. Funny though the largest selling Wargame ever in Europe is Talonsofts East Front 2.

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"I will make war so terrible they will never want to wage it again" W.T. Sherman

[Sgt Schulz]

As an avid player of both CM and the Close Combat series......I can agree with you barold713 on a few aspects and dissagree on others to start....I can honestly say that during it's time the Close Combat series and still even now is the most realistic "REAL TIME" WWII game available, although just about the only. Though I truly HATE the way the game ended up when it reached CC4 and CC5, I still at times play CC3 and all the modifications made for it. If you have not played the Western Front mod or the Real Red mod people cannot really say they have played the best versions of that game. Combat Mission is a godsend to me and I seldom have time for any other game without taking away from what little time I have with my family....(Poor Icewind Dale I may finish it this year hahaha) but I do occasionally get in a game or two on the Zone. The mod folks have truly done their best to make the game as accurate and complete as possible, and have done woderful work accomodating requests from gamers albiet not as well as BTS....that's another story. What I am actually getting at is there is no comparison of the Close Combat Series and Combat Mission except they are both wonderfully modeled in their own formats and they are both WWII combat. That's it!! CC is real time and Combat Mission is a hybrid Strategy/turnbased (which i might add was ingenious).

I'm not trying to target anyone in specific but I must say that if you are going to bash CC3 in particular than either it's not your kinda game or you really didn't give it a chance, at least as far as adding the modifications to the game to enhance the realism. I'm not going to sit here and wave a CC banner but I get tired of hearing people spout off saying how much CC3 sucked when they more than likely never gave it a fair shake. Oh Well my 1 1/2 cents lol.

As far as CM2 and whether the game will receive a new AI engine, well IMHO not much will have to be done to improve the AI....it is the best modled AI in any type of game I have ever played to date. I agree that BTS has gone out of their way to accomodate any LOGICAL requests.I really look forward to seeing what pops up next with the russian front, even though I enjoy the western front more than anything else. I don't personnaly care what any gaming magazine says good or bad about a game...I will give any game I feel I may enjoy a fair shake. If CM2 is as good or better than CMBO tahn all the better for us.

Oh yea barrold713 I can simpathize with you on the back problem, I am 25 and last year had two surguries to repair two blown discs in my lower spine....OWWWWWWW Too much weightlifting and firefighting....hehe... That victin is good stuff but percasets are heaven hahaha Wish you the best recovery.

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"D-Day was a nightmare. Even now it brings pain to recall what happened there on June 6, 1944. I have returned many times to honor the valiant men who died on that beach. They should never be forgotten. Nor should those who lived to carry the day by the slimmest of margins. Every man who set foot on Omaha Beach that day was a hero."

General Omar Bradley-

[Guest barrold713]

Sgt:

Thanks for the empathy. A couple of your points regarding CC3 are correct in that I have not previously been aware of any extensive mods that might make me re-evaluate CC3. The long term replay value was my primary grief with that game, especially with the very limited number of battlefields provided. I did play it throughly so I can honestly say that I did give the game as purchased a very fair shot.

My point was not to compare CM with CC3 (nor to bash it) because that thread has been done before. I used it only as my own personal experience with having a preconceived high expectation for a product and only gaining a modest return on those expectations. The release of CC3 is merely the point at which the series began it's commonly perceived decline.

If the previous two games had not been so good, it could be argued that CC3 would not have been regarded as being overshadowed but "what ifs" are not especially useful.

The lesson BTS or any other developer should gain from the example of the CC series is what not to do in order to extend the life of the future CM games. Continuing to add value to the consumer by adding features, graphics, etc.; extending the flexibilty within the game, and if possible back engineering the engine to bring previous versions up to the latest technology will ensure a BTS disc is sitting in the CD drive of a great number of players for a long time ahead.

As an aside, while I would like to agree with your contention that ignoring reviews, I have been burned too many times by not waiting until I can get several independent evaluations before buying a game that I ended up hating. I try and weigh the reviewer's assessment against their bias and my own personal preferences in games. Being a sucker for almost anything involving East Front Armor for example, I would give a game in that genre much more latitude than any D&D based RPG even if every reviewer said it was the best thing since $1 draft night at the local brew pub.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify (as much as the medicines allow) my position.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[crumply]

obviously, bf's customer support has been fantastic and responsive, and cm is far and away my all time favorite game.

and i am sure i will preorder cm2. but i got burned for $45 on cc4 (same crap, different maps). if cm2 is just new data and textures, i will proceed cautiously on cm3.

if cm2 includes 1. improves the ai routine to include "memory" threat recognition, rather than just los, and 2. a interface improvement for the moving of groups of units, i will preorder cm3 as well.

just one customer's voice in the wilderness.

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by crumply:

if cm2 includes 1. improves the ai routine to include "memory" threat recognition, rather than just los, and

I wouldnt hold your breath for AI memory. From what I read on the discussion of memory for the AI, it was agreed that it was supremely difficult to code into any game, especially one as CM, where there can be more then one threaths.

Correct me if Im wrong here, people.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[crumply]

i am not a programmer, so i probably should not talk out of school, but: you have an ai "marker" for a sighted threat; why erase the "marker" when the threat pops smoke?

[Maximus]

Originally posted by crumply:

obviously, bf's customer support has been fantastic and responsive, and cm is far and away my all time favorite game.

and i am sure i will preorder cm2. but i got burned for $45 on cc4 (same crap, different maps). if cm2 is just new data and textures, i will proceed cautiously on cm3.

if cm2 includes 1. improves the ai routine to include "memory" threat recognition, rather than just los, and 2. a interface improvement for the moving of groups of units, i will preorder cm3 as well.

just one customer's voice in the wilderness.

OK, I don't understand your argument at all. Yes I've read the rest of this thread and all, but your argument just doesn't hold water. If you truly knew how often BTS tweaked the AI in this game, you'd know that what we have now is just about the best yet. (Although I liked the way it was with v1.1.) Judging by your number of posts since last June, it doesn't seem you've been a very big part of the discussions since then to know what has gone into this game.

And you say that you wouldn't want to buy CM3 and CM4 if it were based on CM1 or CM2 engine. Well, IMHO, I wouldn't care if the engine remained virtually unchanged until after CM4. Besides, that's the way I interpreted the birth of the CMII engine is until after CM4 was out. But hey look, if you don't wanna buy the later CMs, then don't. The difference between the CM series and the CC series is, is that BTS cares about its customers while Atomic and Microsoft do not. The CM games will constantly undergo tweaks as bugs are found or enhancements are demanded.

I can understand your point about memory AI when enemy targets pop smoke, but what is the tank supposed to do until the smoke disipates? Just sit there?

Your lack faith in BTS is very apparent here. Maybe you should be a part of the community more before you go critizing the resolve of the developer.

IMHO, if BTS will update older versions up to the current standards of the latest release then I don't see a thing to "worry about" as you said. Now *that* would be the best scenario. Just think if Microsoft updated CC1 to CC2 standards, and so on. But then it would end up suckin' because CC4 & CC5 sucked big time now didn't it?

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"Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator

"Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot

"I do what I likes, and I likes what I do."--Darrell Hammond (portraying Bill Clinton), SNL

[Maximus]

Originally posted by russellmz:

cm2 will have the necessary research for russian front, after that, a new cm engine!

Now that's not the way I understand it. CMII won't appear until after CM4. Why would CM3 require a new engine? The battles are going to be out in the desert for Christ's Sake!

------------------

"Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator

"Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot

"I do what I likes, and I likes what I do."--Darrell Hammond (portraying Bill Clinton), SNL

[deanco]

I think we've all been spoiled a bit by the AI in this game. BTS have gotten so close to perfection that now the faults in the AI that are still there show up like glaring faults, instead of AI programming bugs that the player integrates into his perception of the game.

I'll say it again : the success of the WEGO system of gameplay is DIRECTLY RELATED to the quality of the AI. Can you imagine how much fun CM would be if you hit GO and watched your units making all kinds of stupid maneuveurs and getting shot up. And you, the player, helpless to do anything about it. At least in RTS titles you can redirect them, but no such luck in CM. So IMHO if the AI programming woulda been anything less than stellar in CM, it woulda been one of the worst games ever made.

The two go hand in hand. The better the AI, the more satisfying the WEGO experience is. In fact we can pretty much say, the fewer AI bugs, the better the game, in a global sense. This is because of the fact that WEGO makes the computer AI CRITICAL to the success of the game.

My 2c,

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DeanCo--

CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/

so many games...so little time

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by Flipper:

well I am not worried that cm2 will be good but face fact's it will not garner the same

enthusiasim or high mark's (from game reviewers) that the original did very few if any games do.

Don't be so quick to count them out. I agree that sequels are seldom as good as the original, but these guys (BTS) defied the odds with the original which is a testimony to their vision. I have no doubt the second installment will surpass all expectations as well. It may take some tweaking, but with the grognards input, it shall be done. I have never kept a game on my hard drive this long. With the mod community and scenario editor, the game never gets stale. Just like the Energizer Bunny, "it keeps going and going..." John

[Doug Williams]

I agree that sequels are seldom as good as the original,

Warcraft 2, Heroes of Might and Magic 2, Close Combat 2, East Front 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Panzer General 2, Doom 2, Diablo 2.....

....sequels can be done right, and I'm betting that CM 2 will be one of them.

[Sgt Schulz]

If you truly knew how often BTS tweaked the AI in this game, you'd know that what we have now is just about the best yet.

All too true...how many updates and a vast majority was because of interests and discrepencies from the players...what other game maker goes out of their way to listento anything a player has to say espicially after the game has been released for so long?

And you say that you wouldn't want to buy CM3 and CM4 if it were based on CM1 or CM2 engine. Well, IMHO, I wouldn't care if the engine remained virtually unchanged until after CM4.

Again what really needs to be changed at all....mostly fine tuning but jeez these are 60 second turns how may things do people expect from their troops let alone a tank. when gents complain about one battle their tank does this or that, it's plain crazy....I don't know how many times I've sent my Hellcat's cruising along and watch the horrid accuracy from them but hey thats life or should I say that's game.

But hey look, if you don't wanna buy the later CMs, then don't.

HERE HERE!! Like mama alway's said ya ain't got nuthin nice ta say, don't say S**T.

(my ma had a bit of a potty mouth lol)

The difference between the CM series and the CC series is, is that BTS cares about its customers while Atomic and Microsoft do not.

Very Very true...though I should mention that the rights were sold to the CC series to a group of gents who actually did all the Mods for CC2 and CC3 and they are working on improving the engine and starting their own game series.

The CM games will constantly undergo tweaks as bugs are found or enhancements are demanded.

That's why ya'all ROCK!!

I can understand your point about memory AI when enemy targets pop smoke, but what is the tank supposed to do until the smoke disipates? Just sit there?

My question is why would you leave em there?

Your lack faith in BTS is very apparent here. Maybe you should be a part of the community more before you go critizing the resolve of the developer.

At the very least go back and read a bit of the past threads and do a BIT of research into changes and updates and the quick responses to queries and suggestions.

IMHO, if BTS will update older versions up to the current standards of the latest release then I don't see a thing to "worry about" as you said. Now *that* would be the best scenario. Just think if Microsoft updated CC1 to CC2 standards, and so on. But then it would end up suckin' because CC4 & CC5 sucked big time now didn't it?

Yes; Yes they did very badly I was PISSED to say the least after playing CC4.

Barrold713 you again make some good points and just so you are aware I was not bashing you in anyway I was just trying, albeit lamely, to defend one of my favorite games until CMBO came along and beat it down like a read headed step child. Hope you feel better soon, at least you are able to sit at the computer, took me 2 weeks to even get out of bed after the first surgury. But getting paid for 3 months to play the computer was great I need to get busted up more often.

[This message has been edited by Sgt Schulz (edited 03-04-2001).]

[Guest barrold713]

Sgt:

Again thanks. I do OK when I stay relatively immobile in my comfy chair and take the medications. I just hope I don't have to wait too long to get into surgery, because I am not getting paid at the moment (fortunately my wife is a nurse so she makes some decent coin), but if this strings out past 90 days, some disability insurance will kick in with 2/3 of my salary.

I didn't take any comment as anything other than a righteous defense of your personal opinion and preference. Nothing wrong with that. The point on which we can surely agree is that BTS has a level of customer concern currently unmatched by the creators of CC and these guys just seem more personally attached to their product than I have ever seen from any other developer.

Hope your recovery continues to go well.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[crumply]

earth to maximus: the game is not in a perfect state. there are things that can be improved.

given the support bts gave to BO, i expect CM2 will be more than data and texture changes. if not, CM2 will still be a very good game, but the series will be heading in the wrong direction.

[JunoReactor]

Somewhat OT but... about those graphics, ok I hate it as much as the next guy if the selling point of a game is eye candy rather than gameplay. (form vs function, anyone?)

But.. but.. think of CM would be if all those graphics experts worked on a new engine for it for CM2.. After having seen some of the latest games, just the thought of a CM engine using the improvements from them gives me a tingle..

By the way, let me add that I wouldnt care at all if CM2 used the same engine as this one. Its adequate.

[This message has been edited by JunoReactor (edited 03-04-2001).]