Canuck Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 Don't know if anyone has posted about this before. I think it would add a very interesting twist to the game. Certainly it's not applicable to CM because European (west) were all fairly small in size and limited to usually sabatoge at most. I think I'm correct when I say that by the end of 1942 the Russian partisans numbered 130,000 and most individual groups were in the range of 350-2000 in size. This is certainly within the scope of CM's battles. Perhaps they could be used in quick raid missions or something. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/016521.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaffod Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 Just to add to that thread back there.. I think partisian combat should definately included in the game. If anyone has read the boko Forgotten Soldier one will quickly realize how commonplace partisian-flushing out missions were. I belive the main character was in the GrossDeutschland division which saw a good amount of action on the east front. The battles in CM2 would probably involve units no bigger than company size.. Scenerios where a group of partisians are to demolish certain landmarks regaurdless of risk, or rescue missions where a german company may be under intense fire and need properly inserted backup would be super cool. I dont think it would be too far out of the way to include 'partisians' in a CM programming code sense.. All they need be is down-scaled russian squads that may move a little slower, have random numbers of men, and have a greater chance of being fanatic. Some squads may be elite as well.. but the key is to keep them in small groups. Partisian warfare would provide a whole new NEW perspective than the regular 'place your troops', 'plan your strategy' and 'attack the enemy army'. BTW, is there a site or place to go to find out updates on the development of CM2? thanks, Zaff' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barticus Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 Originally posted by Zaffod: Just to add to that thread back there.. I think partisian combat should definately included in the game. If anyone has read the boko Forgotten Soldier one will quickly realize how commonplace partisian-flushing out missions were. I belive the main character was in the GrossDeutschland division which saw a good amount of action on the east front. The battles in CM2 would probably involve units no bigger than company size.. Scenerios where a group of partisians are to demolish certain landmarks regaurdless of risk, or rescue missions where a german company may be under intense fire and need properly inserted backup would be super cool. I dont think it would be too far out of the way to include 'partisians' in a CM programming code sense.. All they need be is down-scaled russian squads that may move a little slower, have random numbers of men, and have a greater chance of being fanatic. Some squads may be elite as well.. but the key is to keep them in small groups. Partisian warfare would provide a whole new NEW perspective than the regular 'place your troops', 'plan your strategy' and 'attack the enemy army'. Zaff' I would like to second my hope for this particular aspect of CM2. I read that book, by the way, pretty good. I can particlarly remember the authour being cheesed off at some officer or other when on the way back to Germany for a two week furlough, he got drafted into a partisan-hunting party that lasted, go figure, two weeks. I agree that it would be pretty interesting to see, say, cooks and artillerymen having to fight off a troop of partisans. Hmmm, now, what about Cossacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 I'm for it! Let's all remember that a certain unnamed "Classic Squad-level Wargame" did a very good job of incorporating partisans. CM scale is PERFECT for this type of unit, and cossacks too! I can envision many excellent scenario's and operations featuring those wily freedom-loving Russians. ------------------ And King Xerxes looked to King Leonidas and spoke. "Our Archers will rain arrows down upon you to blot out the sun." And King Leonidas replied: "Then we will fight in the shade." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 Panzer Leader, is right and I think that partisans could be easily factored into the game. There are even many scenarios from that "classic squad-level wargame" dealing with partisans both in Russia and in the former Yugoslavia. Simply give them a stealth level or ability to blend with the trees better plus faster movement through the forest sort of thing. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Consider this thread a lobbying effort for partisans. BTS will either take it to heart or not, our fate is in their hands. Maybe if we beg. I could imagine BTS giving partisans a long look, checking how much CM2 has ballooned over CM1, the saying "Nah, not worth the effort. We've shovelled twice the vehicles, uniforms, buildings and scenery in there already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 I seventh (eighth?) the motion to include partisans. Partisan "bumps" and hit and run raids make great little quickie infantry battles for those of us wage slaves with not much time to game. Curious to have the Grognard Collective's thoughts on how partisan tactics and organization would differ from regular infantry as modeled in CM. I had the opportunity to hang out with some irregular units fighting in Burma (Karen insurgents and Shan/Kuomintang opium guerrillas). Based on that limited experience, I'd suggest the following: 1. Smaller squads -- Use half squads that can't recombine. 2. No organic support weapons. All support weapons would be found in separate teams. 3. Far fewer leaders, with far less command control for a player.... Perhaps only a single HQ to control an entire company-sized group. If possible, partisan HQ units should be very difficult for the enemy to distinguish from regular partisan half-squads. 4. Less ammunition and a lot less firepower to reflect lousy marksmanship. Partly offset this with more snipers though! 5. Not sure whether concealment or woods movement abilities should be enhanced. They did it in Squad Leader, but I can't honestly make a case for why this should be so. Experienced regular troops are pretty woodcrafty and local trail knowledge will only get you so far. Punt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Well, I would say that partisans SHOULD get movement and concealment bonuses due to the fact that they are on their OWN turf, and I might even suggest that their leaders are organic to EACH squad, but that might be going to far. It would reflect their independence and commandless nature. However they could be quicker to break and quicker to rally, with perhaps some sort of random weapons generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Respectfully, I'm not convinced of the independent fighting abilities of partisans compared to those of trained regular troops. You might get elite groups of hard core partisans with outstanding tactical and combat skills, but the broad mass of these folks are badly inferior to regulars in a sustained firefight and they know it. "Kill and get away", as the old Cossack saying goes. This was exactly the tactic employed by the irregulars I spoke to in Asia... set up an ambush zone, shoot off two mags and then get the hell away before the Burmese regrouped and counterattacked. Roger Hilsman (a longtime professor at Columbia University) who led these same tribesmen against the Japs in Burma as an OSS officer, told me that his people used the exact same bump and run tactics, as do special forces units today. And it's still two mags and beat it into the trees so the enemy counterattack hits empty scrapes. CM partisan engagements in open country would therefore assume a pattern where the partisan sets ambushes, shoots like crazy for a turn or two and then spends the rest of the game trying to withdraw before the enemy can inflict even greater losses on him. In a larger bump, he might set up smaller secondary ambushes to whack the pursuing enemy. The Partisanjager on the other hand would need to deploy in such a way as to minimize losses in the ambush zone and read the terrain so as to envelop the partisans and mow them down with MGs.... Then massacre the inhabitants of the nearest village in good Kurt Waldheim fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 I think Partisans could be included in CM but not available for purchase in Q Battles by players. Where they could be implemented is in scenarios and Operations where a small band or party of Partisans could turn up as re-enforments to add spice and flavour to the game. Having them with extra stealth values and so on could produce gamey use if the human player can purchase hoards of them, unless they are under a seperate points category with a maximum limit on how many you could buy. Just my thoughts. CDIC ------------------ "Death solves all problems - no man no problem" J.V.Stalin, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Just as an example to backup LLF's comments re partisan combat effectiveness.... I'm currently reading "The Guns of War" which is the war time story of a Canadian FOO with 4th Field Arty (25Pndrs). Anyway they're into Belgium and some local resistance, White Coats, join the Canadians in an infantry attack. At one point there is a comment about how when the German's began to motar the attacking infantry the White Coats all bunched together against a wall and suffered heavy casualties. This was attributed to their lack of training in infantry tactics. Just one example but valid I think. As a final note I'd like to also add my vote to see partisan forces in CM2 if possible. Reg's Fen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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