Better Sharpshooters for the Soviets?

[Jeff Duquette]

We all played Squad Leader. Finish Squads were 6-5-8's and Russian squads were only 4-4-7's. What more do you need to know about the Winter War.

[Tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Naja:

tero, I would like to know more about the Finnish army. Many years of reading about WWII has taught me to take most accounts with a grain of salt (I must admit now reading mostly German accounts.) Unlike the most vocal here I prefer the human element of WWII and prefer the human element of the moment to the unit # and div x was 'here or there' which reminds me of a person memorising some boring baseball stat as opposed to the feel of an individual caught in a life and death struggle. If you could point me in the direction on the Finnish soldiers version of the war I would appreciate it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think

www.winterwar.com

is a good place to start. Follow the links from there.

Finnish casualties can be searched in English at

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/menehtyneet/index_en.php3?alku=tosi

[Jeff Duquette]

Try: http://www.winterwar.com/Mainpage.htm

A good site. No Glantz either

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

HERE is where the national modifiers step into the picture.

What usually happened was the armour would push through but the infantry would get stopped and shot up at the MLR (as per Finnish SOP: stop the infantry, it is more dangerous. Isolate the armour from the infantry and deal with the treaths in the order of urgency). In that situation a Finnish commander would gather all available troops for a counterattack. And as you are well aware the arctic day gives daylight from around 9am until 3pm. That means that the tanks would be helpless in the dark in a few hours anyway so they can be left alone to drive around while the counterattack is directed at the infantry at the point of the breach.

When the Red Army got its act together things got more difficult for the Finns. But when during Winter War the situation got gradually worse the summer of 1944 situation fared better because that time around our army had ample supplies of arms and munitions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get it, what do nationality modifiers have to do with this? Why do you need them to do what you describe? If Finnish SOP was to "stop the infantry and isolate the armor" what is preventing you from simply ordering you forces to attempt that and hoping your opponent is stupid enough to allow it to happen?

[Kallimakhos]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Naja:

tero, I would like to know more about the Finnish army. Many years of reading about WWII has taught me to take most accounts with a grain of salt (I must admit now reading mostly German accounts.) Unlike the most vocal here I prefer the human element of WWII and prefer the human element of the moment to the unit # and div x was 'here or there' which reminds me of a person memorising some boring baseball stat as opposed to the feel of an individual caught in a life and death struggle. If you could point me in the direction on the Finnish soldiers version of the war I would appreciate it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Than you for asking. There's a book that allmost all Finns have read, Unknown Soldier, by Väinö Linna (more info e.g. http://www.mosin-nagant.net/First-Shot-unknown.html). It's been translated into English and many other languages, I have understood the English translation is not one of the better translations, but it is still worth reading.

To Pzkrpfprgrghhh: only person speaking (tauntingly) about ûberfinns is you, who have been throwing this bait to Tero on every other thread. It is not surprising that the finnish point of view is often surpassed, there is language barrier, the Finnish front was not the most important front of the war, etc., and it shouldn't be surprising (or looked down upon) if Finns want to present their view of what happened.

No to the matter itself: Väinö Linna said it best: "The Winter had been the best war so far, because both sides won. Russians won bit more, but the pesky Finland game to goal good second." (I'm citing from my memory and my translation is horrible, but hopefully the thought comes out right.)

Winter war was a defencive victory, that created a myth that one Finn equalls 10 russians, which in the continuation war was proved deadly wrong, expecially in the beginning of the Russian offensive in the 44, when Finnish army's moral reached it's low point. Moral is the key factor here, only after the army stopped fighting for Great Finnland (yes there was lot of talk about that) and started defending their homes, were the defencive victories of Tali and Ihantala possible. The comparison between Fenno-Russian wars and battle of Marathon is justified in many ways.

None of the Finns here have shown any nationalist chauvinism, just well-justified pride and gratitude for staying independent, usually with grain of salt and self-irony, which makes it even harder to understand your bigotry agains us finns, mr. Pzqrpshshh...

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Kallimakhos ]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

which makes it even harder to understand your bigotry agains us finns, mr. Pzqrpshshh...

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Kallimakhos ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not exibited any bigotry etc towards Finns, Tero etc. I merely replied to Tero, what you or anyone else chooses to interpret it as, I can hardly effect.

That said I will apologise if Tero or amyone else is misunderstanding my posts intent, in epressing my opinion concerning Tero's enthusiasm in promoting Finlands supremecy.

I was merely offering a counter point to the attitude I saw prevailant in the text, and from the replies, I was not the only one seeing it either. I also believe had Tero thought I was taunting him, or an 'bigot' etc he would have brought it up he is quite capable of defending himself.

I believe you, sir also owe me an apology for even sugesting bigotry etc w/o even attempting to clarify my intent before tossing public accusations of such around.

John Waters

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]

[imported_argie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

That said I will apologise if Tero or amyone else is misunderstanding my posts intent, in epressing my opinion concerning Tero's enthusiasm in promoting Finlands supremecy.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for butting in ... but there is no need at all to apologize for anything. I am just amazed of your patience with Tero.

Kallimakhos: to try to accuse someone of bigotry, just because they don't go along the finnish patriotic view of the winter war and the continuation war, is just ******. And to try to cover over nationalism and one-sidedness with excuses that they are jolly comments "with grain of salt and self-irony" is just blatantly stupid. A smiley does not negate a serious comment.

Mattias

[Jeff Duquette]

Oh please Kallimakhos spare us the bigotry speech. No one is talkin trash about Finns here except you. Tero is a personality. He's proud of his country and it's army. Nothing wrong with that. But he also likes to push buttons. But I am doubting by the number of smilies he includes in his posts that he is under the impression anyone is slaming the Finns.

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

But I am doubting by the number of smilies he includes in his posts that he is under the impression anyone is slaming the Finns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't finns the stuff being cut off sharks to give the Chinese an aphrodisiac? They don't seem so powerful there, now do they?

What is this thread about again?

John, you seem to have an awful lot of trouble with people understanding you lately...

[Jeff Duquette]

Germanboy:

I have been doing some extra curricular digging on German range finders. While looking through my image files I found I may have deleted that real nice photo your Grandfather took through the eyepiece of an Sf14Z. Can I get a copy of that shot again?

As far as what this thread was about, and what it has become...wheew! your guess is as good as mine. There was some disscussion on snipers on page 1 I think.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[Kallimakhos]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrAlimantado:

Sorry for butting in ... but there is no need at all to apologize for anything. I am just amazed of your patience with Tero.

Kallimakhos: to try to accuse someone of bigotry, just because they don't go along the finnish patriotic view of the winter war and the continuation war, is just ******. And to try to cover over nationalism and one-sidedness with excuses that they are jolly comments "with grain of salt and self-irony" is just blatantly stupid. A smiley does not negate a serious comment.

Mattias<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes there is need for apology... from my part. Bigotry is a word ill chosen and I apologise using too harsh language. But it is just these totally unfounded accusations of natiolism and one-sidedness that spilled my cupp. So if the best sniper in WW2 happened to be a Finn, it is not PC to say that (even when provoked), because it might diminish the glory of some other, bigger nation?

Line between nationalism and patriotism isn't allways easy to draw, but it is hard to see how a debate based on sound historical studies and sources could be counted nationalistic. What could be more one-sided than to say that one side has no right to present their own interpretations?

To my understanding this whole thing started when Tero suggested giving pixel-troops some national straits to modell different doctriness and training, which has been misunderstood as making or Finns or any other nation ûbertroops. Allthough this suggestion has some merits, I don't aggree with it, but hope and believe that CM2 will be able to give "realistic" enough play-feel also on the Finnish front.

Discussing nationall issues on a multi-nationall board, one should avoid provocative language, it can easily be misinterpreted even if intentions are good. I know, also I should try to keep this in mind...

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

John, you seem to have an awful lot of trouble with people understanding you lately...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Andreas, I know maybe it's time for another vacation from the board.

Regards, John Waters

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Yes Andreas, I know maybe it's time for another vacation from the board. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heck, you just got back.

[Tero]

>I don't get it, what do nationality

>modifiers have to do with this? Why do you

>need them to do what you describe?

Please note that when I talk about these modifiers I always refer to TacAI. I already use Finnish tactics in CM and I can not rely on the TacAI to do what I want it to do so I have to micromanage and use inappropriate commands that either deliver spectacularly or backfire miserably.

Did you take a look at the winter war site and the tactics section there. Can you honestly say that the Finnish and the Soviet tactics were so similar that they can be accurately modelled with the same TacAI ?

The TacAI is modelled according to certain rules. Are these rules really universal so they apply to all armies at all times as is ? There are some points in tactics that are common to each army but the solutions each army found and used are most certainly not universal, even if the commands were the same. For example the CM2 is rumored to include the Assault command as a new feature. That is good. The implementation is rumored to be so that the firepower is DIMINISHED (halved I think) for the assaulting unit to depict one half squad moving and the other covering. A Finnish unit in assault would sneak up on the intended target location and rush the last 20 meters or so firing at maximum ROF with all weapons. So what is the command I should use as I can not get the shock rush with any command that is currenly present ?

Also, on a joint mission with the Germans up north the Finnish troops almost lynched a German officer because he used a whistle to mark the start of the advance. That was the cue for the Germans as well as the Soviet troops being attacked.

Stealthy movement as all times was SOP for the Finnish army. A German officer once said he had seen smarter looking and more organized formations among the retreating armies in the west than the Finnish army was in advance. The Finnish collumn broke down into "coffee groups" after some time and it eventually looked like a disorganized rabble. This is because the Finnish army would move at the side of the road and in the forest so that the force could scatter to the forest to conceal itself fast should a recce plain fly over. Even if it came up on the formation by surprise it would not see the true size of the unit.

Is there going to be Pull Back/Disengage command in CM2 ? CM assumes that the disengagement is always to your baseline.

Come to think of it CM actually assumes that you are always attacking and never pulling back unless it is a rout.

Is the current set of command nationally biased against the Germans ?

>If Finnish SOP was to "stop the infantry

>and isolate the armor" what is preventing

>you from simply ordering you forces to

>attempt that and hoping your opponent is

>stupid enough to allow it to happen?

How many times have you shouted at the screen "Do NOT go there !" or "Do NOT engage THAT (infantry) unit (Wait for the tank which moving up just behind that obstrution) !" ? "Nonononono ! Not THAT way !" "I did NOT order you to do THAT !"

Some non-national dependant TacAI and other features:

- the "best cover near the enemy" bug still not fixed

- relative vs absolute spotting

- ambush marker isn't exactly what you would want it to be most of the time

- no way to assign fire sectors in defence

- no way to pull back forces realistically

- no secondary positions for the defenders so they pull back by either going forward or to a direction that will not be where you would set up your next line of defence

- TacAI will direct AT-guns to engage which ever type of target they please - no hold fire/preferred target orders

- a squad will fire only at one target at a time

- concealed bunkers and pillboxes will get revealed through sound contacts long before the enemy could actually spot it

Some national dependant behaviour patterns:

- morale related things like tank scare, or lack there of. Should there be progressively bigger morale hits for the troops according to their experience level when they are engageing armour at close range with Molotovs and satchel charges. Or should there be even morale bonuses for regular and better troops because they know the tanks are blind as bats ?

- any and all force dependant tactical intricasies beyond the human players control, such as the basic movement formations (single file, line abreast, diamond etc) and the spread between men in these formations

- individual initiative when not in CC

[Tero]

>I have not exibited any bigotry etc towards

>Finns, Tero etc. I merely replied to Tero,

>what you or anyone else chooses to

>interpret it as, I can hardly effect.

I do not feel bigotted.

>That said I will apologise if Tero or

>amyone else is misunderstanding my posts

>intent, in epressing my opinion concerning

>Tero's enthusiasm in promoting Finlands

>supremecy.

Not supremacy. Diffences in tactics and doctine.

The facts I present seem to point out that our army was superlative. And it was ! But how do you implement that into a game realistically if the norms are Germans and Soviets ? We did not have anyway near the manpower or the amount of technical goodies. Only guts and ingenuity. We could not afford such losses both the norm setters could. That was reflected in our tactics and doctrine.

Swedes we are not, Russians we do not wish to become, let us be Finns.

>I was merely offering a counter point to

>the attitude I saw prevailant in the text,

>and from the replies, I was not the only

>one seeing it either.

So far the debate has been civil enough. We are shouting above each other like the proper gentlemen we are.

>I also believe had Tero thought I was

>taunting him, or an 'bigot' etc he would

>have brought it up he is quite capable of

>defending himself.

Damn straight ! Not that I do not wellcome a little shotgun from time to time.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: tero ]

[lcm1947]

You guys go ahead we'll start another post about snipers.

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>By Icm1947

You guys go ahead we'll start another post about snipers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I lost track of this thread about two pages ago.

Gyrene

[Slapdragon]

Germanboy, please arrange to have my brain checked again, I am defending John.

The Finnish bonus has always been simple. Play Elite troops on defense against a horde of Ruskie dumbells.

Tactics is not really an issue of the TacAI except in one player play, and play testing will reveal if there is a need to tweek it for Finnish units.

Other tactics is provided by the player, no coding needed.

[Tero]

>The Finnish bonus has always been simple.

>Play Elite troops on defense against a horde

>of Ruskie dumbells.

I am willing to admit that that would work for the Winter War. But what about later in the war when you play Elite Finns against Veteran or Elite Ruskie hordes ?

>Tactics is not really an issue of the TacAI

>except in one player play, and play testing

>will reveal if there is a need to tweek it

>for Finnish units.

Tactics is an issue when it comes to automated TacAI responces. Yes, there should be a certain amount of unpredictability in the responces. But there should also be a certain amount of predictability that is based on the differences in tactical and doctrinal training in each army.

This issue revols around the Finns too much.

I see nobody trying to point out that the differences in the Red Army and German training, tactics and doctrine did not differ significantly to warrant a TacAI that works both forces in exactly the same way. These differences are taken for granted.

Experience levels apply only so far. They matter in things like responce time, aiming accuracy under fire etc. What about the trainig of tank drivers and how they correlate with their experience level and vehicle they are driving for example when they are traversing rocky terrain (narrow vs wider tracks, ground pressur etc) ? Or how does the experience level of the TC correlate with the vehicle he is commanding ? Should a a Veteran German be more Veteran than a Veteran Russian or are they really equal in every respect, when it comes to TacAI ?

>Other tactics is provided by the player, no

>coding needed.

Yes. Provided the player is given a decent set of commands and he can expect the TacAI to try and carry them out as well as it can.

It is only when something unexpected happens the TacAI responces should be based on national differences based on training, tactics and doctrine. It is not the orders issuing phase that is in question here, that is up to the player. It is the 60sec execution phase that concerns me. The CM game engine is too frontal attack oriented to model Finnish infiltration attack and defensive tactics as is.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grisha:

Actually, they were using .50 MGs as sniper weapons in Korea. Even put a scope on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possible I guess, but I've never heard of it. But they didn't do the stuff Hathcock did with it to make it so famous. Oh well, at least we can get this topic back onto sniping, not Uberfinns again.

[Tero]

>But he also likes to push buttons.

I admit this is true up to a point.

But is it really only pushing buttons if you refuse to be assimilated and you do not memorize the party line by heart ?

>But I am doubting by the number of smilies

>he includes in his posts that he is under

>the impression anyone is slaming the

>Finns.

By no means. I make my statments and I present the facts to back them up. They are being put through the 3rd degree.

The difficulty in debates like this is the fact that we Finns are weened on these "truths", just as Americans and the Brits or anybody else are weened on their set of "truths".

For example every Finn knows the best SMG of the war was the Suomi SMG and most adult males over 30 have even fired one during their national service. I bet the rest of the world have a different opinion on the matter, starting with "what the hell is a Suomi SMG".

When the Suomi SMG is then (in our opinion) underrated in CM2 because the SMG in a squad, contary to Finnish national tactics and doctrine, is not very prominently rated there will be much wailing and knashing of teeth: "The foreigners have done it again. We are getting shafted yet again ! There was no SMG's in a Red Army squad during Winter War and still our squads get a weaker firepower rating. Only because according to the OOB's the Soviet units had more firepower than ours."

[Gyrene]

I heard most Finns could destroy a T34 with naught but a stare from their fierce, steely warrior eyes, is this true?

Gyrene

[Tero]

>I heard most Finns could destroy a T34 with

>naught but a stare from their fierce, steely

>warrior eyes, is this true?

Basically, yes. Our troops did browbeat the crew into letting us have the vehicles as we only had T-26's, Vickers 6tons and a few T-28's at the time. That was not fair and the crew of the T-34 understood that.

A true story: during Winter War an officer once drove away tank (either a T-26 or a BT) in a duel between him and it. He was armed only with his side arm, a pistol. He jumped up in front of the tank, emptied the pistol at the tank and dove to cover to reload and after reloading jumped up again to fire at the tank. That went of for a few times and the spectators were sure the officer would be killed. In the end the crew of the tank decided it was time to quit and they retreated.

[Jeff Duquette]

Man! These guys are tough. US MARINE’s need at least a bayonet to take out a T-72.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

But is it really only pushing buttons if you refuse to be assimilated and you do not memorize the party line by heart ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you were assimilated a long time ago. You're just in a different collective than the rest of us

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For example the CM2 is rumored to include the Assault command as a new feature. That is good. The implementation is rumored to be so that the firepower is DIMINISHED (halved I think) for the assaulting unit to depict one half squad moving and the other covering. A Finnish unit in assault would sneak up on the intended target location and rush the last 20 meters or so firing at maximum ROF with all weapons. So what is the command I should use as I can not get the shock rush with any command that is currenly present ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You see, this is the uberFinn mentality that bothers people so much. First of all the only way a soldier could fire at "maximum ROF" while "rushing" the enemy would be if he had a fully automatic weapon. Now assuming they all have automatic weapons, it is entirely reasonable that their firepower is cut in half while "rushing". A soldier doing this will not be able to fire accurately. You seem to be suggesting that Finn units be allowed to move and fire at full effectiveness at the same time! This is not humanly possible, yet you want BTS to let the Finns do it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is there going to be Pull Back/Disengage command in CM2 ? CM assumes that the disengagement is always to your baseline.

Come to think of it CM actually assumes that you are always attacking and never pulling back unless it is a rout.

Is the current set of command nationally biased against the Germans ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't know what you're saying here. There is a withdraw command. Did the Germans withdraw/disengage in a way unique to them that Allied units were unable to do?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When the Suomi SMG is then (in our opinion) underrated in CM2 because the SMG in a squad, contary to Finnish national tactics and doctrine, is not very prominently rated there will be much wailing and knashing of teeth: "The foreigners have done it again. We are getting shafted yet again !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You see, you've decided that BTS will underrate the Suomi months before you know how it will be rated. No matter how good BTS ends up rating it, it won't be good enough in your eyes. You accuse BTS and anyone who agrees with their stand on nationality modifiers of being bias, yet you display a remarkable degree of bias yourself. Every single thing I have ever seen you post on this forum in relation to the game was in some way an arguement to make the Germans stronger and the Allies weaker. You really come across as a guy with an agenda. I can only imagine it will get worse in CM2 with Finns in the mix (heck, you've started already and the game won't be out for months).

Nothing personal against you, tero, you seem like a nice guy, but a little objectivity would go a long way.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]