Himdog Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 I saw a post on someone's topic asking where to find stories about the war from a Russian soldier's point of view. If you go to this link: http://history.vif2.ru/atwar/index.html you'll find some very good stories as well some great info on Russian tanks and good pics too. Himdog out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Great link Himdog. Thanks. The only thing on earth that will extract the CMBO CD from my machine is CM2. Lot's of good stuff here including the "best" use of the Sherman. Spoiler: as farming and towing tractors once the pea shooter turret was removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Smith Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 I couldn't find that post either, because I wanted to recommend Guy Sajer's Forgotten Soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Brian Smith: I couldn't find that post either, because I wanted to recommend Guy Sajer's Forgotten Soldier. Bear in mind that Sajer's work is heavily criticized by some, and thought by many serious historians to be a work of fiction. Certainly, there are numerous errors either of fact or of translation that leave it open to question. It's an interesting read, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viceroy Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Actually, the historian critics of Sajer are far outnumbered by the historian supporters The main critic is a US army historian. If you do a search you can find the reply to the so called "errors" in the book. Most of them are very minor. But if it was a work of fiction why didn't he make himself out to be a hero? Nowhere in the book does he portray himself as even vaguely heroic. Sajer's book is IMO the greatest anti-war book I've read. Truly gives you a feeling of what the Germans felt in the Great Patriotic War/Eastern front. Well worth reading, even if it were fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Viceroy: Actually, the historian critics of Sajer are far outnumbered by the historian supporters The main critic is a US army historian. If you do a search you can find the reply to the so called "errors" in the book. Most of them are very minor. That depends on your point of view, but this ain't the place for a debate. Any good researcher will use more than one source anyway; just a word to the wise not to treat Forgotten Soldier (or the book Frontsoldaten, which basically quotes much of Sajer verbatim rather than using primary references) as the "bible" on the German Army. Be interesting to see what M. Hofbauer and RMC have to say about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viceroy Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Dorosh, I've met some liars in my time and they have fabricated great and elaborate tales .... but always they've had some element of boasting involved. Why would Sajer concoct an elaborate tale if he wasn't going to glorify himself with some heroic deeds? BTW I haven/t read Frontsoldaten as I heard negative opinions about it. Have you read " The German Soldier in WWII" by Dr.Hart? I found it good. Any suggestions for good books on the German Army? Thanks in advance, Viceroy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Viceroy: Dorosh, I've met some liars in my time and they have fabricated great and elaborate tales .... but always they've had some element of boasting involved. Why would Sajer concoct an elaborate tale if he wasn't going to glorify himself with some heroic deeds? BTW I haven/t read Frontsoldaten as I heard negative opinions about it. Have you read " The German Soldier in WWII" by Dr.Hart? I found it good. Any suggestions for good books on the German Army? Thanks in advance, Viceroy But aren't the true liars the most mystifying? I mean, you and I are decent people - but you've met the kind of guy who lies solely for the sake of lying. The kind you just have to stop and say to yourself "how stupid does he think I am?" And yet you can find no rational motivation for what he's done? I really don't want to get into the Sajer debate, and I certainly don't want to call him a liar. There are many errors in the book that may simply be faulty translation; I don't know enough to tell, but I do know what one very intelligent historian (I mean, live in Germany for years, speak the language and know more than German veterans have forgotten kind of intelligent) has said about it. But presume he did have some motivation to tell tall tales - be a lot easier to make convincing if he didn't win the Knight's Cross (which can be verified a little more easily than simply being a private). I don't want to get too deep into conspiracy theories cause on the face of it, they just look dumb. And I'm not saying don't read him, just that one has to be cautious and mindful of the criticisms - from the ridiculous (wearing the cuff title on the wrong sleeve) to the sublime (being in Rudel's Stuka squadron one minute, and then in an Army unit the next). Many of the "errors" can be explained away - a lot like explaining away bugs in Combat Mission, for example! It's up to the individual if they want to believe it or not. I think the criticism of Frontsoldaten is warranted; the sources are bad - even if Sajer is 100 percent true, he relies on Sajer far too much. It is bad form to quote the same book multiple times in the same chapter, and in just about every chapter. It also appears that no primary reseach - ie talking to veterans personally - was conducted, merely quoting from books and letters, which kind of invalidates the research if that is the only types of sources being used. Soldat, by Siegrfied Knappe is a good book by a German artillery officer, if you want a personal account. I am sure M. Hofbauer, etc., may have some other sources to cite, if they know of good ones in English, that is. I haven't read Hart; thanks for the recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badinfo Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Here is an interesting take on Sajer, who it seems is alive and well, or was until recently...... http://members.nbci.com/flak88/general/reviews/review01.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Just one interesting fact about Guy Sajer: he is the author of comic books in french (bandes dessinées) under the name "Dimitri". Made stories called "le goulag" (story of a french guy prisoner of a gulag, ironic and absurd). Last I saw from him was the story of the battle of Kursk. Not pretty as you can imagine... BTW, the fact that people now know that "Dimitri" the artist is in fact Guy Sajer annoyed him a lot: he felt that this part of his life belongs to the past, and he said he still hasn't completely been able to recover from his WWII experience. Said also that writing his book helped him mentally a lot (was really mentally shaken after the war), and also that NOBODY can understand what it means to be in the middle of a war like WWII if one hasn't experienced it personally. Just a word of warning: what I wrote are not his exact words, it's how I remember what I read. Will try to find the interview if I can. Sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesreidau Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 "The Forgotten Soldier" is one of the best books I have ever read, and I`ve read a LOT. It will always have pride of place in my library.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Just to be a bit nit-picky. Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: It also appears that no primary reseach - ie talking to veterans personally - was conducted, merely quoting from books and letters, which kind of invalidates the research if that is the only types of sources being used. Actually, relying on letters is a form of primary research, if you are talking about letters written at the time. Indeed it's often been a very important one for a host of reasons. The same is true for books written at the time - they can also be valid primary sources. Determining the boundary of what is and isn't a legitimate primary source can be the subject of many a historigraphical debate. Oral histories as a valid source really only began to gain acceptance in the latter part of the 20C. Partly this is due to the fact people's memories distort over time, and partly a long-standing academic prejudice against oral traditions and in favour of written ones. We now return you to your normal programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Ksak: Great link Himdog. Thanks. The only thing on earth that will extract the CMBO CD from my machine is CM2. Lot's of good stuff here including the "best" use of the Sherman. Spoiler: as farming and towing tractors once the pea shooter turret was removed. I couldn't find anything on the Sherman on the site, and they don't seem to have a search engine. Do you recall where you saw this reference? Reason for asking is that I noticed Dmitriy Loza on the page. He's the author of "Commanding the Red Army's Shermans" which I've been reading. He speaks very highly of Shermans, despite their flaws and idiosyncracies. It would be interesting to get another point-of-view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Brian Rock wrote: Partly this is due to the fact people's memories distort over time One illustrating example of this is Stepakov's and Orehov's "Paraatimarssi Suomeen" (probably not published outside Finland) that contains interviews of Russian Winter War veterans. The interviews were conducted in late 80's and early 90's. Most of the veterans probably tried to be as accurate and truthful as possible. However, in many, many, accounts the old soldiers repeated old legends as having happened to them. For example, there were incredibly many accounts of battles against Finnish "cuckoos", treetop snipers. However, I haven't been able to find a single case where a Finnish sniper had climbed to a tree. On the other hand, as reported by Miihkali Onttoni, Finnish soldiers at Suomussalmi noticed, and were glad of it, that when they opened fire, Soviets would respond by firing at treetops, apparently because they believed that Finns were there. The most absurd of the tree-top claims is Ismail Akhmedov's claim that Finns had placed a 81mm mortar on a pine... Another legend-turned-to-truth is Finnish women batallions that many veterans claimed to have fought against. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 AWESOME link. I've been looking for something that good for a LONG time. So much German stuff available, I was getting frustrated. Hearing the side of the Soviet's was great! Thanks for the awesome link. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 The link is under "Lend Lease Aid" http://history.vif2.ru/library/archives/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Brian Rock: Just to be a bit nit-picky. Actually, relying on letters is a form of primary research, if you are talking about letters written at the time. Indeed it's often been a very important one for a host of reasons. The same is true for books written at the time - they can also be valid primary sources. Determining the boundary of what is and isn't a legitimate primary source can be the subject of many a historigraphical debate. Oral histories as a valid source really only began to gain acceptance in the latter part of the 20C. Partly this is due to the fact people's memories distort over time, and partly a long-standing academic prejudice against oral traditions and in favour of written ones. We now return you to your normal programming. Excellent points, and I agree. Bear in mind that letters home were often designed to shield the reader from the truth, however, and since they were censored (especially in the German Army), not 100 percent accurate. Having read some of the Letters From Stalingrad that were translated into English, you do get an accurate sense of the despair 6th Army felt, and the determination they showed - though one wonders if the latter wasn't put on so that the families wouldn't suffer. Newspaper articles are technically "primary" sources as well, but their usefulness, as you know, is also mixed - especially in wartime where the press is controlled to varying degrees. I just found it curious that an entire book should be written about German soldiers, in an age where thousands of veterans are still alive, and not a single one was apparently contacted, but a controversial book with many elementary errors of fact (explainable or not) was used over and over, and with direct quotes, in order to illustrate the author's points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by badinfo: Here is an interesting take on Sajer, who it seems is alive and well, or was until recently...... http://members.nbci.com/flak88/general/reviews/review01.htm Thanks for the link; I've seen this article before and had it in mind when I wrote my other comments here. It's quite convincing, though I am still not 100 percent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary T Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Just to add to the Frontsoldaten debate. I did a university dissertation on this subject and was told that contemporary letters and diaries written are far more valuable sources to a historian than a veteran interview will ever be for the reasons already mentioned. This is more so when considering the politics involved. After all what German veteran today is going to say he truly believed in Hitler's racist policies, even if he has changed his mind over the years? Such thoughts were not hidden in contemporary letters as evidenced by some of the quotes in the book. Excatly where can I find academic criticsm of the book? One problem is has it that it can be said that from billions of letters itcan only hope to use a minute fraction as evidence. Therefore it can not be guaranteed to be truly reflective. Obviously the greater your primary source base, hten the better this will be. There is a German website (Potsdam Univeristy project I think) which is attempting to get as many Feldpost letters as possible to create a massive resource for future historians. I can't remember the address off hand but will post it if anyone's interested. Michael - Iwas interested in you comments about the Letters form Stalingrad. There is a consensus of though that these are fakes, or at least heavily doctored...see Stalingrad: Memories and Reflections for details. Cheers, Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Gary T: Just to add to the Frontsoldaten debate. I did a university dissertation on this subject and was told that contemporary letters and diaries written are far more valuable sources to a historian than a veteran interview will ever be for the reasons already mentioned. This is more so when considering the politics involved. After all what German veteran today is going to say he truly believed in Hitler's racist policies, even if he has changed his mind over the years? Such thoughts were not hidden in contemporary letters as evidenced by some of the quotes in the book. This is a truly excellent point to make. Michael - Iwas interested in you comments about the Letters form Stalingrad. There is a consensus of though that these are fakes, or at least heavily doctored...see Stalingrad: Memories and Reflections for details. Cheers, Gary. That is indeed interesting; guess they fooled me, huh? The only copy of this book I've seen was put out in the 60s, I believe, and there were no notes accompanying them save a brief intro by a US Army officer IIRC. I will definitely look into the source you indicate; thanks. For the kinds of things that Frontsoldaten tried to cover, though, I thought the heavy use of Sajer as a source (ANY source used that heavily is being used improperly) was the biggest drawback. I should probably go through my copy of Frontsoldaten again. No disrespect intended to vets, but they are indeed dubious sources of information 60 years after the fact. My main area of research is uniforms, and of course, 60 years later who can be expected to remember what they were wearing? One needs to remember that these guys were fighting for their lives, literally, and weren't too concerned about recording things for posterity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 [sorry empty post I can only edit, not delete] [This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 03-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Gary T: There is a German website (Potsdam Univeristy project I think) which is attempting to get as many Feldpost letters as possible to create a massive resource for future historians. I can't remember the address off hand but will post it if anyone's interested. http://www.feldpost-archiv.de/ Non-German speaking people should be aware of the Babelfish service that make a crappy word-by-word translation, but at least a translation. Regarding the Subject of the thread, I don't like the "Frontsoldaten" book at all. Read the originals. The summarizing of the Fronsoldaten book cannot transport the point, either the authors don't get the point or the book is not verbose enough to do it. The book doesn't quote from that many autobiographies, BTW, so it's not much more expensive to collect the originals. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Viceroy, I received the Hart and Hart book you mention for Christmas and have read it all the way through. I found it an excellent read from an information standpoint. The diversity and breadth of the soldiers' experiences were marvelous. The book fell flat on its face, though, in terms of profound disjointedness and in its utter absence of even a select bibliography through which to follow up all those amazing and insightful accounts. There's the matter, too, of either generic or wrong photo captions all through the book. The authors, both respected university dons who should've known better, turned out a finished product so bad in areas critical to this kind of work that any college student would deserve to flunk the course for turning in such shoddy work. I was particularly appalled by this since I also own their GERMAN TANKS OF WORLD WAR II, which is short but quite well done. That's my take on it. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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