Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Has anybody else had a problem with crews prematurely abandoning their infantry guns when under fire but not having taken a casualty? I've just lost two 75mm Inf. guns when they were being moved and admitedly under fire but no casualties suffered. When I lost the first one from 60mm mortar bombardment I thought, oh well, they're out of command from an HQ unit so "c'est la vie" but when I lost the 2nd one it was moving in the open but under the command of a +1 morale HQ unit & what caused them to abandon was an 81mm airburst some 15-20 meteres away in adjacent woods. Surely splinters of wood will not render the gun useless and without the crew having taken casualties, what gives? Anybody else noticed this sort of thing happening perhaps a bit too regularly? Reghards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 If a 81mm shell air bursted 15m away from me I'd prolly say "screw this" and head off into the sun-set as well. The only problem is I'd prolly come back to the gun at a later date if I thought it was all clear... something you can't do in CM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 11, 2001 Author Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by KiwiJoe: If a 81mm shell air bursted 15m away from me I'd prolly say "screw this" and head off into the sun-set as well. The only problem is I'd prolly come back to the gun at a later date if I thought it was all clear... something you can't do in CM Hmmm, I dunno. 15 to 20 meteres is over 50 feet away. O.K. I wouldn't want to be there myself in that situation but I figured that an HQ unit with a positive modifier for morale (ie the heart symbol) would make a significant difference. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunoReactor Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 HQ unit with a positive modifier for morale (ie the heart symbol) would make a significant difference Yes, I agree. If I was there, after seeing a explosive aimed at my general direction shred the tree just 15 meters from me (thats the 81mm mortar), seeing a authority figure with a red hearth painted on it (this is the platoon commander with morale bonus) would make things seem so surreal that I would probably stay with the gun. Then again, thats just me. [This message has been edited by JunoReactor (edited 03-11-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Kanonier, Is very likely that teh gun was abandoned because a mechanical failure caused for a splinter than for Moral issues. Crews in close contact with HQs with Moral bonus don't break so easy, but guns and mortars are very sensitive to splinters from airbursts and close explosions. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 If I remember correctly, in the Beta it was possible for panicked weapons crews to return to their gun. I would like to see that as well as he option to abandon a gun (especially in presence of a commander). The inability to do this is almost unforgiveable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 M, YRIC (You Remember InCorrectly) A Panicked crew could recover and continue to man the weapon, but once they abandon the weapon, this is for ever... And this was this way from even the Beta Demo. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlh1138 Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 I just played two QB using a 75mm inf. gun. In the first, the crew hung in there, slowed an infantry attack, and knocked out a halftrak and a Sherman. Most of this was under a steady mortar barrage. So.. playing another QB, I buy another one, thinking, these things are tought. This one gets off two rounds, has a mortar burst (OK two bursts) about 30 feet away, and the crew runs off. So... I've had both experiences. Probably due to slight difference in placment, maybe one just behind a hill crest and one not. Who knows.. but I'm having a hell of a lot of fun, and starting to beat the AI regularly. (Thanks to all those posters on tactics!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 Kanonier- The word "abandoned" in CM doesn't mean the same thing as it did in SP. In SP, "abandoned" meant the crew had just buggered off but the weapon was fine. In CM, OTOH, "abandoned" means the weapon was in fact damaged in some minor yet critical way so as to make it inoperable. IOW, in CM, "abandoned" is a form of "knocked out". So why bother with both "abandoned" and "knocked out" if they mean the same thing for practical purposes? Because in operations, it's easier to fix "abandoned" equipment. In single battles, of course, this doesn't apply, but both types of game use the same results system. So in single battles, just consider "abandoned" as "knocked out". ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 12, 2001 Author Share Posted March 12, 2001 Thanks Bullethead & argie for your clear responses. Obviously I have been a bit unlucky with these two guns but you know what they say..."sh*t happens". Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 I think this has a lot to do with troop quality as well. I've seen green troops routed without taking any casualties... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 I was playing in a QB last night and I had my sharpshooter make a crew abandon their gun (unfortunately not before just taking out one of my AFVs) yet there was no other fire to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incoming Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 In the last 4 or 5 games i have used the 75mm and 150mm german infantry guns with "regular" crews. In all games my crews have withstood fire from mortars, Priests, Shermans, and M-10's. They never abandoned the guns with zero casualties. They always had casualties and/or the gun was damaged. In some cases fire was coming in from more than on source at a time. I always put them in trees/woods. The only negatives I have experienced with these guns is putting them in areas where they have a large field of vision. In this case they usually dont last long. I find that if you station them in locations with limited fields of vision that they are VERY usefull at turning enemy infantry to shreds. of course you have to guess correctly as to where the enemy will appear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamsters Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 It's silly that CM has the term Abandoned when they mean Damaged. In CM2 they should allow recrewing and they should institute a Damaged state to replace the Abandoned state in use in CM. Otherwise the implication is that the gun (Or vehicle) is always damaged to some degree before the crew takes off, which is patently false. There are sufficient accounts of crews ditching becuase the fire was too heavy or they were just plain scared or whatever to say that crews only leave a gun or vehicle when it is inoperable. With the possibility of Abandoned, Damaged or Knocked Out, you can properly institute remanning guns, rather than grouping everything under an ambiguous Abandoned and then claiming that most of the time this means damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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