Triggerhappy Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 I just stumbled upon a website that claimed the AK-47 was basically an updated MP-44. Is that true? If yes, what was modified to make the MP-44 become the AK-47? ------------------ Rührt euch! CMPFCICM2 - Combat Mission Players for Campaigns in Combat Mission 2 - Join us! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullus Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Yes, the MP-44 Assault Rifle (first one ever made) was the direct ancestor of the AK-47/74 family of Soviet weapons. The AK-47 was a reverse-engineered MP-44 with updated tech & built to Russian specifications. Also, the M-60 US Machine Gun is almost a direct copy of the MG-42 (which is still used, in updated form by the Bundeswehr). [This message has been edited by paullus (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Well saying that the AK-47 is a remodelled MP-44 isn't exactly true. It's true that the AK-47 was modelled *after* the MP-44 but it wasn't a modified MP-44 by any stretch of the means. Boris Kalishnikov who developed the AK series used the MP-44 as the base idea for creating the AK series. ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-18-2001).] [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 No, other than appearance and the fact that the MP44 was the original assault rifle, they are about as far apart as possible, possessing completely different actions. [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Yes, Kalishnikov would probably take exception to having his pride-and-joy referred to as just an updated MP-44. The lineage may be traceable, but they are two significantly different guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triggerhappy Posted January 18, 2001 Author Share Posted January 18, 2001 I see. Thanks to all for your answers! ------------------ Rührt euch! CMPFCICM2 - Combat Mission Players for Campaigns in Combat Mission 2 - Join us! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Updated is the wrong word, but the AK47 was based entirely around the design of the MP44. Without the MP44 there would have been no AK47. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: ...the fact that the MP44 was the original assault rifle...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think it can be argued that the BAR was the original assault rifle. It was developed to be a LMG, but it doesn't fit that role very well. Any other opinions? ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 I will just support the whole Sturmgewehr 44 theory, check out this link. http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust7.htm [This message has been edited by Der Unbekannte Jäger (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Snake Eyes wrote: > I think it can be argued that the BAR was the original assault rifle. It was the original automatic rifle, hence the name. Otherwise it doesn't have many "assault" characteristics. Too big and not enough ammo in a clip. However well or badly it performed, it is inherently an LMG. The current British LMG is actually about as bad – it's just a long-barreled version of the assault rifle, so it lacks belt feed or a quick-change barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jgdpzr: Yes, Kalishnikov would probably take exception to having his pride-and-joy referred to as just an updated MP-44. The lineage may be traceable, but they are two significantly different guns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have actually seen Kalishnikov take exception to the insinuation that he copied the MP-44. He did an interview with the History channel sometime within the last few years (sorry, my memory fails me as to exactly when or with which show) where he gave his own account of the design of the AK-47. I believe he did say that the MP-44 was inspirationial, but he was more inspired by its flaws than its successes. Mainly that it was (like most things German ) overengineered and overcomplex. Note that if anything the AK is beautifully underengineered. Not that I would buy one of the Egyptian variants mind you. . . ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 wwb, I saw that interview as well, I think it was on an episode of "Tales of the Gun" (kinda makes sense, doesn't it?). He is an interesting man, and deserves credit for his creation regardless of the influence of the earlier German weapon. But I'll admit, I don't know enough of the technical similarities/differences to comment beyond what I have gathered from that interview and a smattering of reading here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: I think it can be argued that the BAR was the original assault rifle. It was developed to be a LMG, but it doesn't fit that role very well. Any other opinions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would consider the definition of an assault rifle to include use of an intermediate sized cartridge. Thus, the BAR (and M-14, FAL, G3, etc.) is not a true assault rifle, but an automatic rifle. By the same token, pistol ammo in a rifle-like gun would not be an assault rifle, either. (Like the M1903 Springfield with Peterson device ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: I think it can be argued that the BAR was the original assault rifle. It was developed to be a LMG, but it doesn't fit that role very well. Any other opinions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would consider the definition of an assault rifle to include use of an intermediate sized cartridge. Thus, the BAR (and M-14, FAL, G3, etc.) is not a true assault rifle, but an automatic rifle. By the same token, pistol ammo in a rifle-like gun would not be an assault rifle, either. (Like the M1903 Springfield with Peterson device ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paullus: Yes, the MP-44 Assault Rifle (first one ever made) was the direct ancestor of the AK-47/74 family of Soviet weapons. The AK-47 was a reverse-engineered MP-44 with updated tech & built to Russian specifications. Also, the M-60 US Machine Gun is almost a direct copy of the MG-42 (which is still used, in updated form by the Bundeswehr). [This message has been edited by paullus (edited 01-18-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Last time I checked the brits still use bren guns. ------------------ No bastard has ever won a war by dying for his country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Here's a bit from Robert Bruce's highly recommended book "German Automatic Weapons of World War II": "...The Soviet AK47, American M16, Belgian FAL, Swiss SiG510, and especially the German G3, bear unmistakeable similarities to the German MP43/StG44." "Having suffered mightily in 1943-45 at the wrong end of the German Sturmgewehr, The Red Army was soon to benefit from a weapon designed by a young former tank sergeant named Mikhail Kalashnikov. He designed a select fire rifle for the "new" Soviet M1943 7.62mm x 39mm cartridge; similiar to the German Kurz, this was made by shortening the standard Russian rifle and machinegun round and adding a "rimless" base. Kalashnikov's resulting Automat Kalashnikov obrazets 1947g - Ak47 - went right down the list of desireable features of the StG44 beginninig with its straight line configuration, detachable 30-round box magazine, pistol grip, and selective fire capability. Although its bolt-locking was not taken from the StG44, Kalashnikov did make use of that rifle's bolt carrier and gas operating system. Sheet metal stampings are used in the receiver and top cover of AKM versions, and the folding stock of the AKMS is a slight modification of that on the German MP38 series." This is a great book for those intrested in these things. It covers the Mauser, MP-40, MG34, MG42, FG42I & II, and the StG44 as well as the post War legacies of these weapons. Includes live-fire pictures, comments, details, as well as field stripping in detail. Tiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paullus: Yes, the MP-44 Assault Rifle (first one ever made) was the direct ancestor of the AK-47/74 family of Soviet weapons. The AK-47 was a reverse-engineered MP-44 with updated tech & built to Russian specifications. Also, the M-60 US Machine Gun is almost a direct copy of the MG-42 (which is still used, in updated form by the Bundeswehr). [This message has been edited by paullus (edited 01-18-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's not correct, the M-60 is not based on the MG-42, it's a completly different technical concept. I havn't the vocabulary to explain detailed, only so much, the MG-42 is loaded by recoil, the M60 by gaspressure. [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 So basically we can only agree that the Sturmgewehr 44 was a very influential design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars: Last time I checked the brits still use bren guns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Er No we don't, however the curently British infantry squad support weapon the LA80 is ****, it would probably be better if the British inf still had brens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Deja vu all over again... http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009894.html [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 01-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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