karch Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 oh crap! I meant tanK ... tank with a K... oh shoot! and gamEY.... man, what a dolt.. OK I hate the term gamy... but is it correct to continue to use a vehicle with damaged main gun as infantry support? Using MG only obviously. I had a JPIV that just had it's main gun KOd by a stupid mortar hit. It was on overwatch WAY back on the map... would it be wrong to rush him up and use his armor and MGs to support my troops in a town? Probably, but I'm curious what would be done historically. I can see both sides... 1) Tank gun KOd, local commander says withdraw and get the gun fixed so the tank can fight another day... 2) Tank gun KOd, local commander says don't just stand there.. you've got a MG and more armor than any of the men you are supposed to be supporting.. now get up there and help out the grunts! What do you guys think.. Tony Kerstan... this is our game... how do you feel.. Don't want to do anything improper. I know it's a game.. but I like trying to be as historical as possible.. it just makes me feel better about the games. I love a fun ahistorical slugfest.. but sometimes I like trying to use historical tactics even if they aren't the best.. because that's the way it really was. Scott Karch [This message has been edited by karch (edited 01-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by karch (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 As the troops in your front line I'd sure appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 In real life it would depend on the seriousness/desperation of the situation. In CM, I'd say go for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Consulting the Illustrated Guide to Combat Mission Ettiquite, we find that it isn't gamey. However, if an enemy tank shows up, your gun damaged tank had better get out of there. In operations, you're usually better off pulling the damaged tank off the line, so he can get repaired in the next battle. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Verdamnt! I was hoping it was our game you were talking about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skott Karlsson Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 A big ole motorized armored machine gun? Nahhh... I'd certainly welcome it if I was a infantryman. Ever notice the ones (not singling anyone out) that cry foul and no fair are the ones on the losing end? <G> ~Skott~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted January 16, 2001 Author Share Posted January 16, 2001 von Lucke... Oh yeah.... THAT one has a damaged gun too... you might as well advance down into the town right down that central avenue..... yup, pull that sherman just a little bit away from that church. thanks for the great game.. I hope I DON"T have to make that decision with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Very, Very Dumb post Karch. Diddn't you see Terry Salvales in the end of Battle of the Bulge. Come on now Hollywood is not gamey and u don't smell very gamey either, so why did ya post again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 You know Karch, you have actually brought up a whole new discussion, and that is the use of small tropical fish as gunmounts in ETO from 1944-45. While we all know Tangs were used in the pacific, many people do not know how many Tangs actually fought in Europe. My problem is that as infantry support, Tangs well...blew, and without the 2mm gun they carried on the dorsal fin, they would be just grist for the Nazi grind. Why would a Tang, forcibly ripped from their reef habitat, packaged in small plastic bags, fitted with a cannon, and let loose on the battle fields of Europe want to do any such thing. They may not be as smart as hamsters, but Tangs have some brain power. More than a Goby at least, and WAY more than a Darter or a Guppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I think it would not have been very likely in Real Life, but as your opponent I would not complain, because that tank is almost certainly a goner as soon as one of my tanks gets a bead, it won't be much help as support, and I can look forward to get all the points for it once it is knocked out. So for those reasons I think you should not do it but just drive it straight off the map or leave it somewhere behind. Has nothing to do with gamey, just plain common sense. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Back to the shop, fix the gun (probably quite easy with a spare part), hunt tanks tomorrow. To the bloody infantry - sorry boys. I tried, but a blasted mortar smashed my gunsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted January 16, 2001 Author Share Posted January 16, 2001 Yeah... I think you two are right. I also agree with the previous posts that said if I were an infantryman, I'd like the support... or at least a bigger target than myself nearby. I probably will move him behind the hill to keep the points.. It's PROBABLY what would have happened. It seems that attacks that would have stalled out in a real battle get played out much further in CM because, well, they aren't real men and it doesn't matter as much if 3/4 of them die in an attack if you end up with the VLs. I think I just read a post from Steve or Charles to that effect and I am looking forward to CMII with much smarter atuo-cease fires when both sides have taken loses that would have stopped fighting in reality. Awsome game!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted January 16, 2001 Author Share Posted January 16, 2001 Oh, and Slappy.... can I call you Slappy? What I meant is I had the USS Tang submarine up on that hill... Displacement: 1870 tons (surf.), 2391 tons (subm.); l. 311.7'; b. 27'; Â Speed: 20.25k (surf.), 8.75k (subm.); Test Depth. 400'; Armament. 1-5"/25;torpedo tubes 6-21" . fwd, 4-21"Â aft; Complement:. 6 officers - 60 enlisted men; Sorry Capn' we just took a mortar round on the main deck 5" gun and the the enemy is out of Torpedo range... Ok Jonsey, let's just back her down this hill and get her fixed up for the next battle.. Great post Slapdragon.... Thanks for the laugh. [This message has been edited by karch (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I wouldn't call it gamey, but, as stated elsewhere, I wouldn't call it wise either. Its loss to the enemy can seriously hurt your victory total. Personally I try to pull them out of the line and/or use them to "hold" a VL. In any event I will make exception for Crocodiles -- if the flame projector is working it's still a tank in my book. Some argue that including gun-damaged tanks in a mass "rush" over open ground, in the hopes that they draw fire away from the undamaged tanks, is gamey. I've pondered this and I don't think the argument holds water. One only has to think of the American dive bomber pilots who had lost their bombs prior to attacking the Japanese carriers at Midway. They dove with the rest for the express purpose of helping the boys with the bombs get through. Maybe the analogy is not a good one, but it's the best I can think of. ------------------ My P-47 is a pretty good ship And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip I was thinking 'bout my baby and letting her rip Always got me through so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Good call Babra. Its called takeing one for the team. I do it all the time in Rogue Spear/Urban ops. We are fequently stacking up behind a choke point, one covers other tosses frag, another rushes out quick to draw fire while other 2 run out with aimed shots. Same in paintball. I've gotten a kill after I ran out of balls. Used the "air" to make other team duck, then found my friend distracted, rushed him and stuck the gun in his ribs and said "surrender or die". Needless to say he he walk off the field. If I run out of my main ammo in RS,I will get in long range fights with only my .45 just to get a win. same principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I think it's gamey to play the game. But as in real life, there are no simple answers to complex problems. When dozens of variables are involved, no one boiler plate response fits. It depends upon the tank itself, or fish, or submarine, and what type of role it was in, where it was located and what it was doing, what the enemy position is at that time, and whether or not its continued use is viable, or a risk, to what degree either exist, and whether or not its secondary guns are effective or simply adding to the fireworks, how its use is being contemplated, as in critical moment support or a cruise down the autobahn deer hunting from the fast lane. Now, for .inf support, some use the notepad editor, but I prefer the MS Word document editor as notepad can be called word smithy, and those who are smithy are usually shunned by the penpal ladder grogs. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 BTS needs to implement new code to make gun damaged tanks panicked and brittle (!). Also give tanks with gun hits low ammo for their mg due to the fact the tank crew would not want to attract fire on their gun-damaged tank. Tiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seimerst Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I'd say it depends on the situation- (what a great cop out). If you were certain that the AT threat was low to non-existent AND that the "moving MG bunker" supporting the infantry was essential to mission success, then by all mean, start spitting little bullet thingies instead of big bullet thingies. It is a judgement call and you get to make it. Or are the points for having it still alive more valuable than any service it can render. Is this a great game or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Better yet, they should just make all tank hits fatal to both tank and crew... God forbid anyone might actually consider using any component parts without the others being functional. I think when tanks bog, they should just blow up in a spectacular fireball throwing tank crew bits everywhere. Was it gamey for me to drive my car to work this morning even though my passenger door won't open? Joe ------------------ "I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz [This message has been edited by Polar (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 He wasn't talking about fish or subs,he was talking about the drink! Would you want to go into battle with damaged astronaut drinks?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavall Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 You think attacking without a gun is gamey how about this: Quote from a British tank officer John Cloudsley-Thompson "We continued our advance, mopping up more enemy infantry as we went. One sergeant tank comander captured a small ridge firing a Sten gun from the turret of his tank when both Besa machinegun and 75 mm had jammed. We crossed the {main Caen} road and captured a small wood on the slope beyond. German infantry were hiding in the corn all around us: we fired at them with machine-guns and high explosive, and took many prisoners. We were shelled and mortared heavily the whole time. Then we entered the wood, our Cromwells facing outwards in all directions". :eek From "The bloody battle for Tilly, Normandy 1944" by Ken Tout. An excellent book about the British and Canadian assault on fortified villages south of Caen (Goodwood etc) written by a Sherman tank gunner who took part. Includes many staggering eye witness accounts and a must read. cheers Cavall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-: Good call Babra. Its called takeing one for the team. I do it all the time in Rogue Spear/Urban ops. {SNIP} Same in paintball. same principal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Except in Real Life<sup>TM</sup> "taking one for the team" generally doesn't mean simply pressing reset or waiting untill the next game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Big difference between gamey and unrealistic, Polar. Using a gun-damaged tank is not gamey (isn't exploiting flaws in the game engine), but I'll argue that it's really unrealistic in most circumstances. Unless the crew is really confident that there are no enemy tanks in the area, you can bet your hiney that they'll be heading for the motor pool as soon as that main gun is knocked out. As a former tanker (still in contact with several guys that still are tankers), I can tell you that we'd tell any commander to get *&%$#ed if he ordered us into a tank battle without a main gun! Your car comment is apples and oranges, BTW. You won't get your car blown out from under you on your way to work just because the door doesn't work ------------------ EDIT: Spelling. "Oooh, tough crowd. A real bunch of nihilists. Let them eat chads..." - Lawyer (who else!?) [This message has been edited by Mannheim Tanker (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zukmuk Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Kind of off topic but I have a question. In CM, does it allow for infantry to take cover behind a knocked out tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zukmuk: Kind of off topic but I have a question. In CM, does it allow for infantry to take cover behind a knocked out tank? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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