Diceman Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I for one find the hull turning tweak to be a real improvement to tank behavior. ------------------ Pair-O-Dice "Once a Diceman, Always a Diceman." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 (havent upgraded to 1.1 yet) If my tank turned its hull to attack infantry id be more than a little pissed off. The only time a tank should rotate its hull instead of its turret is when the target it is engaging, or is engaging it, has a low or better chance of a kill. I find the system in 1.05 to work great if your allies with fast/med turrets. It gets a bit iffy with slow/very sow german stuff trying to enegaging infantry to thier sides. But thats the price you pay for having a slow turret. In my mind their is simply no wasy the tac AI can sum up a current battle situation and decide as well as a human player can as to whether it should rotate its hull. Thus it shouldn't try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Ok. So let me sum this up. If the tank could determine whether or not threat level of a target warranted hull turning, and acted accordingly, you all would have no problem with this? I'm just making sure we're all on the same wave length. I agree with this. If my tank rotated towards a halftrack (armed with only a MG) and left it's flank open to some sort of AT unit, that would indeed suck. But whether or not this is gamey, I think it depends. I could see a commander in real life throwing a feint by speeding something small and fast by a tank, and then sending in AT stuff if they drew a reaction by the feint. Of course, an expirienced TC would simply order the turret to be turned. So maybe indiscriminate hull turning (boy that sound wierd, doesn't it? ) should be left to green or conscripts. But on the other hand, how well can a tank crew identify a vehicle? Especially when buttoned? If I were a member of a german tank crew and I saw something olive green zoom by through one of the viewing ports, It might frighten me enough to want to rotate the hull. Sure it could be half track, or maybe a Jumbo...who knows if it crashes out of the woods and qwickly flanks us. Hmm...I think we're over thinking this...especially me. I haven't even tried the bloody thing out yet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 By the way anyone read the Haunted King Tiger thread i started? That was a wake up call for me as to how much better a tank can sight things if unbuttoned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hankey Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Well, I had always been a litle frustrated to see my tanks engage the odd lost and dazed crewman with it's main gun. I mean, why can't the AI just use its machine gun on the soft targets? If I want to blast them with HE, then next turn, I target them and then select "use main gun". Seems simple to me, but the obvious always seems simple to me. I remember one match with a friend where I was activlely hunting his Sherman with my Pz IVG. I knew where he was going to come out of a copse of trees and approximately when. I only had to be ready when he showed. So, a huntin' I go and - "Hey Hans, there's some Yank guy wandering over there. Put the main gun on him while I cruise along and hunt for this Sherman." So naturally the turrent rotates at almost the perfectly WRONG time just as I'm popping out of a copse of trees to engage the Yank Tank. Only by the grace of God did the crew guy duck into some trees and my tank broke lock and straightened the turrent JUST in time to catch the sherman in the snout. Tea time. Now I don't understand this engaging infantry with the main gun anyway, but now I have to deal with the whole damn tank rotating toward some clown with a pistol. I had told a friend that the 1.1 patch would fix the main gun/infantry thing (I thought I read it somewhere). He's gonna flip to see his entire tank turn to engage infantry. WTF. It's a great game, but this seems like such an obvious problem (to me anyway), I'd have thought it would have been fixed ages ago. Am I out to lunch with this thing, or what? Please to explain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I agree with your thoughts Guy. I don't think we are over thinking it, I think somebody underthought it. The entire issue seems to revolve around a complaint that the big monsters have slow turrets. Yeah, so what's the point? They did didn't they? The primary point being overlooked is that an option of the interface and gameplay, chiefly the rotate button is being taken away, at least to a great extent. Additionally I see what appears to me anyway, to be a logic hole big enough to drive one of them King Tigers through where an opponent can take advantage of my armor's new found predictability and toss out a "CREW" or something else worthless to attract the armor unit's attention, knowing full well it's either (a) going to turn in that direction, or ( get confused and do a "whicha way did they go doc" routine, either way providing a great opportunity to take a pot shot in the ars of my armor unit while it's attempting to figure out what it should do, instead of, (a) me telling it what to do, or ( doing what the original and historical design was supposed to do, and rotate the turret. Slow turrets are a fact of WWII. Since when did everyone heretofore all concerned with historically accuracy and gamey tactics in all them thar debates about crew usage and jeep rockets and truck reconnaissance in force, decide to alter their passionate quest for infinitesimal historical accuracy and the eradication of gamey tactics worldwide forever, for little more than some convenience of popularity to provide for the ease of use of King Tigers! Aaarrggggg... There goes that music again. Do dee do do, do dee do do, blaaah, blaaah, "There's the signpost up ahead..." Why's that voice keep saying that? ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I really like the hull-turning change that has been put in. As for Bruno's worries... they have always been there. Tanks seeing equal threats have always had the tendency to swivel the turret and not really fire at anything. With the slow German tanks. I have seen german tanks swival thier turrets for almost the whole turn and shoot at nothing. This is nothing new, just now I guess you notice it more due to the hull turning also. Note yes it does happen, and gets on your nerves. But not any more now than it has since the beginning. Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX and for Kitty's sake =^..^= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I can't agree Lorak. There is now a major difference. The turret swinging and not firing only means the AI wasted the opportunity to fire on the target. Where as now the difference is the AI is placing the unit in considerable danger by potentially exposing the weaker hull portions to enemy fire, further doing so in a predictable manner which also provides for an AI weakness that can now be exploited with a great degree of confidence by those who would be, oh my, gamey! ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hankey Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Definitely missing the point Lorak. Imagine your center piece tank turning sideways to shoot the "clown with a pistol" just at a lone tank killer eases over a ridge. Are you with me here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Good posts ALL of them Well Charles has already admited the current v1.1 is not the Final v1.1 Apparently the Jumbo Armour and speed remains untweaked and the HVAP (tungsten) is not using the slope modifiers Charles thought it was. (source Charles comments in two other recent posts in different threads) So there is still a chance we might get to the bottom of "this hull rotating to blast soft targets and crews" issue. I believe there is still a problem here that should be adressed. I think the "solution" to the alledged problem of "slow turreted tanks" that we have now is perhaps questionable. BUT the rest of the game and all the NEW bugs fixes Work GREAT! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 nevermind [This message has been edited by Guy w/gun (edited 01-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Thank goodness, thank you Tom. For a minute there I was considering that Prozak bottle the ex left in the bathroom. Can I go to sleep now? ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: Thank goodness, thank you Tom. For a minute there I was considering that Prozak bottle the ex left in the bathroom. Can I go to sleep now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> sorry? What are you thanking me for? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Oh... Sanity. That music stopped when I read your post. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Has anyone actually seen a tank swivel between infantry and an AT unit? I believe the post by aka_tom_w he said that the Panther was indecisive about targeting an Infantry squad or a Halftrack. Both are not what I would call a deathly serious threats. Has anyone actually seen the TacAi make a serious boo-boo in 1.1. Like a tank turining it's hull to the "clown with a pistol" and actually being plugged by AT? Until someone has, It's al heresay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hankey Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Well, if this whole hull turn thing is just to satisfy those people who can't play a game without a KT, then screw 'em. *kidding* sort of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I honestly prefer my tanks turning to face a target instead of simply rotating their turrets, its had increased their lifespan on many an occasion, and Im not just talking about the German heavies...its a mattor of personal opinion though and I guess you cant please everyone. I dont know if its just my play style of I am much more careful than most with my vehicles, but I have never had a problem with the way they operate. I must admit though I rarely have had my tanks in a position where they are even near infantry. I do think and suggest it would be nice for people to actually play a few games with the latest patch before commenting on it too far and make comments that to be honest are little more than pure assumptions. Dan [This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 01-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: Has anyone actually seen a tank swivel between infantry and an AT unit? I believe the post by aka_tom_w he said that the Panther was indecisive about targeting an Infantry squad or a Halftrack. Both are not what I would call a deathly serious threats. Has anyone actually seen the TacAi make a serious boo-boo in 1.1. Like a tank turining it's hull to the "clown with a pistol" and actually being plugged by AT? Until someone has, It's al heresay<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was just reporting what I saw... I was the Allies and the Panther was coming up the road and the HT was going down the road and the Panther was not threatened by any "real" anti tank/ tanking killing threat and the Panther lived to kill the HT and Blast the infantry and EVERYTHING else around it, but for about half the turn it flipped back and forth between the two equal non-threats. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aka PanzerLeader Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I don't have version 1.1 but reading all of this eerie stuff about braindead TCs turning their hull to "clowns with pistols" made me feel sick for a moment, and I thought I'd just drop in to add support to Bruno and all the others who are willing to rid the game from what seems to be a terrible bug. Wow, what a long sentence that was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I do see something with the AI that I find hard to accept. Its the AI the lay on a target and get almost ready to fire and then switch to another target (when completing the fire order and relaying the gun would have timed the ROF of the weapon platform with only a small amount of delay), and then switch again! I know there are enemy out there! It won't do no good if it's still in the tube! [excuse me I wrote this before I got the new 1.1 patch and played it. I think it works incredable. Good job BTS!] ------------------ 'Lets go you apes! You want to live forever?' [This message has been edited by Radar (edited 01-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hankey Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: Has anyone actually seen a tank swivel between infantry and an AT unit? <snip><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IMO, the issue is not really the potential for a tank to swivel back and forth. I think that the (potential) issues are: 1) The hull WILL turn toward infantry as evidenced by the original poster, therefore: a) You could expose your flank when a crew guy happens to drift into LOS at, say, 90 degrees off the nose. Some gamey guy exploits that fact, by running a crew guy at your flank to get get your tank to turn while he simultaneously sends a tank killer at the now exposed flank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Brain-dead Tank Commanders Fighting Hordes of Clowns with guns. It would make a good arcade game or B-movie to say the least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Ok now I see the problem. Your saying that if the tank turns it's hull towards infantry, it is totally open to attack by a tank that comes in to LOS AFTER the hull rotates. Yeah...I see...hmmm. It'd be cool if BTS would comment on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog: I believe it does Guy. Its a scarey site as the allied player to see your first shot against a Panther miss, and instead of just the turret turning towards you, the whole tank brings its front armour around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> =) Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Kwazydog, I appreciate what your saying but it seems to me your missing a couple of points or not seeing the context of what is being pointed out. First, it should mainly be "your" option using the rotate button to change facings, or in the case of the AI initiating action on its own, done so that it makes tactical sense in the manner you speak to, not where it makes no sense at all in the manner described by the gentleman with the Churchills. Meaning, the AI ain't up to it. Secondly, you seem to overlook the exploitation factor that inevitably will occur where gamers will learn to anticipate this predictable AI response, and use any less quality unit to confuse the AI and take advantage of the armor exposing it's weaker sides when it goes to target. (To solve the problem of slow turrets on monster tanks which allows for flanking by faster tanks, we've taken to rewrite history, and pretend they really didn't have this problem, and now we have the monsters turn about in a predictable fashion, thus eliminating the need to flank them, so that all one need do is just toss out a truck and watch em turn, then pop em off with a well placed AT gun or the tank that might have had to at least undertake a flanking movement before all this). Fact is, if its well known the AI is stupid enough to expose an armor units weaker side when firing, and that gamers can count on that, you better believe your comfort level at having your armor always turn to face a target is in for quite a drop. I also appreciate your wanting to give v1.1 a fair shake, and I don't disagree at all. However, my original point was it was released as a final, not a beta to be tested. I'm not a beta tester, if I were we probably wouldn't debating this, but regardless I'm not so why do I want to do the testing in rated PBEM games. Not a cleaver thing to do IMO. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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