Reliability/ Durability/Frequency of German HTs?

[Terence]

Much has been said in the past about some of the German heavy tanks being prone to mechanical breakdowns and difficult to repair.

What about the halftracks? If, as a German commander I had to drive 10 halftracks for a day when the Allies were not bombing, shelling or strafing the roads, how many would be still running at the end of the day, all other things being equal?

Also, if the allies were strafing the roads, how easy a job would my HTs find it to evade the Allied planes? Are they easier to conceal than tanks, more nimble to start up and dash for cover?

Also, how common were the upgunned 75mm 20mm or 81mm mortar halftracks on the Western Front? Were tney assigned as needed? Only to special units?

Reason I'm asking is cause I'm working on a scenario that has some VG conducting a spoiling attack on a US position on the Siegfried line, and I'm wondering what a good and realistic mix of support HTs would be for the German attackers.

[Terence]

bump

[Terence]

bumpy bumpy bump

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

Much has been said in the past about some of the German heavy tanks being prone to mechanical breakdowns and difficult to repair.

What about the halftracks? If, as a German commander I had to drive 10 halftracks for a day when the Allies were not bombing, shelling or strafing the roads, how many would be still running at the end of the day, all other things being equal?

Also, if the allies were strafing the roads, how easy a job would my HTs find it to evade the Allied planes? Are they easier to conceal than tanks, more nimble to start up and dash for cover?

Also, how common were the upgunned 75mm 20mm or 81mm mortar halftracks on the Western Front? Were tney assigned as needed? Only to special units?

Reason I'm asking is cause I'm working on a scenario that has some VG conducting a spoiling attack on a US position on the Siegfried line, and I'm wondering what a good and realistic mix of support HTs would be for the German attackers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I would have have to say that halftracks on the whole would be more reliable then say the big "cats" as they say. The big german armor were for the most part overweight or underpowered, depending which way you look at it. I believe that even the famous Panther was unreliable at Kursk due to its weight and underpowered engine.

On concealment:

I would say that they might be easier to conceal due to there narrow but long body. By how much I am not sure, but I would say not that much easier. After all an aveage sized AVF is fairly tough to completely conceal due to its relatively large size. I would say easier to conceal in scattered trees then most tanks though. (this is just a guess).

Sounds like a cool scenario you are working on. Cant wait to see it when you're done

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[-Havermeyer-]

1 HT is impervious to close assualting allied troops.

I've had TWO (2) FULL-STRENGTH, PLATOONS surrounding 1 HT and couldn't kill it.

Then I did a test again with a COMPANY surrounding a Stu-- and COULDN'T KILL IT FOR 3 (THREE) TURNS!!!!!!

So it just ain't fair, I'm tellin ya!

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

1 HT is impervious to close assualting allied troops.

I've had TWO (2) FULL-STRENGTH, PLATOONS surrounding 1 HT and couldn't kill it.

Then I did a test again with a COMPANY surrounding a Stu-- and COULDN'T KILL IT FOR 3 (THREE) TURNS!!!!!!

So it just ain't fair, I'm tellin ya!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the infantry may have trouble at close range with an HT, but the .50 cal mgs chew them up pretty good.

I've been working on it for a week or so, and its turning into a very interesting scenario - the premise is that the hypothetical US has recently arrived on the hypothetical Siegfried line and that the Germans are eager for them not to get too hypothetically comfortable.

In an environment of hypothetical local counterattacts intended to keep the US off balance and confused (while the Germans ready for a counter offensive) A German attack hits the US line, does some damage and takes a few prisoners before pulling back.

The Germans learn that while the US forces have a good defensive position and a fair amount of mines and wire in front of their positions, the line is held by one now battered company of troops.

So the German commander, while short of resources and with no armor to call on, decides this is an excellent chance to knock the US off the line and generally piss into the soup.

I figured, given the stuff I read about the Siegfried line and the terrain, and the power of allied artillery and air power, it was likely that you wouldn't see a lot of German armor.

I wanted to use the more frequently appearing units, and anyway, I always have more fun playing CM when I have to make do with a less than ideal set of resources.

Of course the US position would be much better --nearly impregnable-- with some AT guns and a couple tanks, but ha ha, there aren't any.

If you play the US, you'll just have to manage somehow.

Don't you know there's a war on???

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]

[Freak]

Oh BTW Terence, I had wanted to further discuss our debate, if you will, on the german Panzer song I so liked as a kid and still like and enjoy today, but somehow it got lost in the shuffle. Oh Well. Maybe we can corespond by e-mail...

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak:

Oh BTW Terence, I had wanted to further discuss our debate, if you will, on the german Panzer song I so liked as a kid and still like and enjoy today, but somehow it got lost in the shuffle. Oh Well. Maybe we can corespond by e-mail...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Email would be great.

I'm sure not everyone shares my enthusiasm for symbolic dialogue and semiotics.

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

Email would be great.

I'm sure not everyone shares my enthusiasm for symbolic dialogue and semiotics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case I'd rather debate it on the forum. I am always up for lively debates.

If e-mail is your prefered means then thats fine too.

I was hoping you might want to start. I dont have much to say other then I like the song and see nothing wrong with that.

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[Slapdragon]

I do have one set of notes about german Half tracks. In September 1944 during the retreat the Allies captured a bunch of the things, and put them to work in the division trains to replace trucks. They were far less reliable than the M3/5 series halftrack, but German sources believe that reliability problems that were endemic in many German vehicles was a combination of much lower standards of maintinence on German AFVs, and on designs which failed to take the current emergency into account and thus used components which could no longer be obtained, or which wore out quickly. The designs were mostly good, just that Germany had ceased to have the manpower and resources to repair its mechanized army.

The US Army used several hundred captured German halftracks until after VE day, when audits discovered some divisions 200% above assign vehicle strength and they were forced to dump the captured vehicles or give them to allied armies.

I should also mention that German trucks were not used much, since they were regarded as inferior in the extreme to US Studebakers, Chevy, and Ford 4x6 and 6x6 trucks. They got better gas mileage though, so the Russians seemed to have used them when they could get them, despite their lower reliability and lesser cross country ability.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak:

In that case I'd rather debate it on the forum. I am always up for lively debates.

If e-mail is your prefered means then thats fine too.

I was hoping you might want to start. I dont have much to say other then I like the song and see nothing wrong with that.

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm not really sure that what I have to say on the subject really constitutes a debate. But I'm happy to tell you what I think, since you asked.

First of all, I am happy if you like the song because there is some joy to be derived from hearing music you really like.

I don't like the song. I don't like it because for me, its association with the German Army and the Nazi regime overpower any effect that a stirring melody or pleasing rhyme scheme might evoke.

The Horst Wessel is a pretty song too and I don't like that one at all either. Its a little easier to see why if you look at a translation...

http://www.usisrael.org/jsource/Holocaust/wessel.html

However, translation is not really the issue here. Its got to do with what, in my mind the Panzerleid is associated with: The German army marching under the swastika. For me, the song glorifies that. So I don't like it.

Its really a personal choice, that I have made and one that I explained at your requst. So there is nothing in this post that is intended to be critical of you, and I apologize if any of it seems that way.

This issue, however never really goes away. Example: Timothy Mcveigh (who was just executed for the Oklahoma city bombing)wanted to recite the poem "Invictus" before his execution. Now I'm not sure if he did, but if he did, the poem will be considered differently by people who know that it was important to McVeigh.

If some other right wing wingnut blows up something and Invictus is invoked somehow during/after the attack, the poem starts to take on a role as an anthem of the anti government/militia movement.

Point being: political events/movements can change the way you feel about or interpret a text or work of art, beyond the intention of the author. And because of this, one person's opinion can be different than anothers.

Hope this helps to explain my point of view.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

I do have one set of notes about german Half tracks. In September 1944 during the retreat the Allies captured a bunch of the things, and put them to work in the division trains to replace trucks. They were far less reliable than the M3/5 series halftrack, but German sources believe that reliability problems that were endemic in many German vehicles was a combination of much lower standards of maintinence on German AFVs, and on designs which failed to take the current emergency into account and thus used components which could no longer be obtained, or which wore out quickly. The designs were mostly good, just that Germany had ceased to have the manpower and resources to repair its mechanized army.

The US Army used several hundred captured German halftracks until after VE day, when audits discovered some divisions 200% above assign vehicle strength and they were forced to dump the captured vehicles or give them to allied armies.

I should also mention that German trucks were not used much, since they were regarded as inferior in the extreme to US Studebakers, Chevy, and Ford 4x6 and 6x6 trucks. They got better gas mileage though, so the Russians seemed to have used them when they could get them, despite their lower reliability and lesser cross country ability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting. Thank you. Any idea about availability at the front?

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak:

In that case I'd rather debate it on the forum. I am always up for lively debates.

If e-mail is your prefered means then thats fine too.

I was hoping you might want to start. I dont have much to say other then I like the song and see nothing wrong with that.

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also: Hey, you live in New York. I live in New York. Whereabouts are you?

[Krinks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

1 HT is impervious to close assualting allied troops.

I've had TWO (2) FULL-STRENGTH, PLATOONS surrounding 1 HT and couldn't kill it.

Then I did a test again with a COMPANY surrounding a Stu-- and COULDN'T KILL IT FOR 3 (THREE) TURNS!!!!!!

So it just ain't fair, I'm tellin ya!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow ... those must've been some under-trained units! I managed to take out a HT with a pair of engineer squads and a smoke round from a tank.

[gunnergoz]

An interesting point about German vehicles...I read that some of the pre-war designs, like the Horsch truck, had over 100 lube points in the chassis. I suspect that the german Hanomag HT's were no different.

The engineering of the designs may have been primo, and the performance first-rate when tuned up, but almost no one in the field could have kept up maintenance on such a scale, with dozens of such vehicles in a company or battalion.

The mass-produced stuff that the US factories cranked out was comparatively crude if set next to the German uber hardware, but the US made things that were eminently supportable by line troops under combat conditions.

Like the old saying goes, "the best is enemy of good enough." The German military-industrial complex was a cottage industry by comparison to the US assembly-line juggernaut. The Russians were no slouches in this regard either.

In the end, I'd take an M3 over a '251 if I had to go the distance...

[Slapdragon]

I would class captured german HTs in US service as uncommon. They were mostly used according to my sources (and one great picture) as medical evacuation vehicles, and thus would not be with armored infantry or at the front. Others were used for "last 10" supplies to move gear to distribution centers at regiment level from division dumps.

I would bet, but have no proof, that using them up near the action was frowned upon because of the likelyhood of having some half trained conscript bazooka team not bother to look for the star and letting fly. Again, no one ever wrote that they were not used near the front for that reason, so this is just a guess.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

I would class captured german HTs in US service as uncommon. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, me too, based only on guesswork.

How about at the German front lines? How common were the German HTs on the German front lines, specifically, how many 75mm, 81mm mortar or 20mm cannon HTs would you expect to see supporting a German battallion, say, in December 1944?

[gunnergoz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

Yeah, me too, based only on guesswork.

How about at the German front lines? How common were the German HTs on the German front lines, specifically, how many 75mm, 81mm mortar or 20mm cannon HTs would you expect to see supporting a German battallion, say, in December 1944?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't expect too many unless it was a recon batallion, where many of the specialized types were to be found. A Hanomag equipped panzergrenadier battalion might have the mortar and short 75 version in small numbers as well. I think the 20mm versions were mostly recon '250's.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

I wouldn't expect too many unless it was a recon batallion, where many of the specialized types were to be found. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indulge me. How many (ballpark) is "not too many" I am totally at sea here and have no idea.

[Slapdragon]

By late 1944, with the exception of forces husbanded from the strategic reserve and used in bulge, German mobility was largely a thing of the past. From June 1944 to October the Germans lost 200,000 vehicles of all types on the western front alone (according to Patton in quoted in "My War"). Although retaining tanks until the very end, they were by the end of 1944 (again, except for Bulge) on foot.

If you want to simulate a German mechanized force though, they existed all the way until the end of the war, they were just rare. Armed halftracks, either the official versions or locally modified, took the place of tanks in leg units that needed fire power and some mobility, but some of the models simulated in the game were rare in and of themselves.

If you really wanted to simulate the situation post October 1944, you could play 10 games. Germans would get tanks in 3 games, half tracks in one, and an armed half track or armored car in another. In each game they would have a chance of getting an assault / mobile AT gun or two, and some towed AT guns. The US would be constrained in infantry, but would have a good chance each game to have a pig load of Shermans, TDs, halftracks, jeeps, trucks, and an endless supply of artillery.

So much for reality. In game realitty, until rarity becomes a factor in CM2, you see lots of Pumas, when they were rare enough to be an alien sighting, lots of 75mm armed half tracks, when they were likewise rare. That it because in each INDIVIDUAL game that 4 of the 100 Pumas are fighting against 4 of the 25 Super Shermans, an event that COULD have happened. The next game you play, you face 2 more Pumas, and the next you play you face another. It is not a big deal, but it makes us think many vehicles were way more common than they were on the ground.

[gunnergoz]

Terence -

keep in mind that a panzer recon battalion rarely fought independently and usually was parcelled out to do it's recon and screening work in small task-oriented platoon and company sized groups.

There were numerous changes to the organization during the war and no two panzer divisions had identical configuration and equipment except when initially fitted out.

For sake of brevity, a typical '44 battalion would have (as issued):

-HQ company with 10 -251 HT's, and 16 8-wheel armored cars (13 with 20mm, 3 with 75mm short)

-Light armored recon company with 30 250's, 2 of which had 75mm short

-Light armored car company with 25 250's of which 16 had 20mm and the rest mg's.

-Panzergrenadier company with 23 250's some bearing infantry, mg's and 2 80mm mortars, some towing 7 20mm AA and 2 75mm infantry howitzers

-Armored heavy company with 6 251's with 75mm short, 6 251's with 80mm mortar

Frankly, I'd be amazed to ever encounter this density of 250's and 251's on a CM battlefield. I'd pick a company sized slice of this, mixed up by proportion, and set it out in a meeting engagement. It would pack quite a wallop, especially if accompanied by assault guns or tank destroyers for AT defense. As an economy of force unit, the German recon battalions were only matched by their US equivalents.

As a counterpoint, consider that the US operated numerous non-divisional mechanized cavalry (read: recon) groups and squadrons, in addition to which each armored division had an organic squadron very similar to the independent ones. The US infantry divisions had a small recon troop (company) that was not really configured to do much but scout and screen, then withdraw if opposed in force.

BTW my source for the German organizational info is Nafziger's The German Order of Battle, Panzers and Artillery in WWII. Hope this helps!