Croda Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Pillar and ScoutPL: Most, if not all of us have read both of your discussions and tutorials on attack and defense techniques. I think I speak for the majority when I say that they were excellently written, and incredibly insightful. There is little doubt that my game has improved from reading your approaches. As Tennyson said, "...and East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet." What we are seeing is the application of predominately Eastern Theory against predominately Western Theory. Small wonder that you don't see eye to eye. For my part, I think they're both valuable and don't need to be mutually exclusive. The problem however is that in reading your tutorials, both plans seem to work excellently. How is one to decide which would work better in a given situation? Trying to compare your examples is difficult due to one major variable: terrain. Seeing you each defend/attack different maps makes it hard to compare anything more than theory, when I think the forum really needs to see practical application of those theories. What I'm suggesting, should you both have the time and inclination, is to have you both setup attacks or defenses on the same map. Someone (I'm more than willing) would generate a map and send it to you both. You would both agree on the size and composition of the force which is to defend the map, and then setup your defenses. The maps would then be available at Matt's site, ScoutPL's site, or wherever, so that the rest of us can take a close look at them and see the layout of the troops, and how all these theories come together. Screen shots just don't do the trick. I don't intend to set this out as a challenge of any sort. My hope is that seeing both of you defending the same terrain with the same force will make it easier for us to have quality discussions, and allow the rest of us to truly learn how to apply the principles that each of you have been promoting these last few months. Seeing as you two appear to be the eminent (or at least the most outspoken ), and I dare say the most knowledgeable, theorists on the forum, your opinions are highly sought after by those wishing to learn a lot about military strategy. Please post here or email me with your replies/thoughts. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Croda, you rock! - Meeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I suggested something similar in one of those threads but was drowned out by the theorizing I'd like to see both viewpoints put into action in a scientific manner, i.e., same map (and forces?), with posted screenshots and AAR's at the least. It could be very instructive. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 fantastic idea Croda. Hard to believe it could come from you really! Pillar and Scout, I think it's fair to say we all value -both- your contributions and would love to see your different approaches in practice. Hell, both of you defend and both of you attack and write up some AARs, would be fun to see how things work out PeterNZ ------------------ "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious" - Oscar Wilde "Don't F*CK with Johnny Cash!" - Chupacabra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I would love it if Croda's idea comes true. It would be a juicy real life example of the "dry" doctrins (sometimes hard to understand for unexperienced mind). PLEAAASE, do it, guys!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I would be willing to do that. Even though with my attack and defense tutorials I think its already pretty obvious how I would approach the setup. However, let me make a qualification. In the defense, Pillar's big emphasis has been on the counter-reconnaissance screen forward of the actual MLR, rather then how to setup an actual defense in depth. He has addressed the complete defense but not with the thoroughness he has the CR fight. My approach has been exactly opposite. I dont think you can realistically portray any sort of focused reconnaissance effort using the CM system, for the myriad of reasons previously discussed ad nauseum on this board. CM was designed to simulate the actual clashing of the main bodies. So thats why my defense tutorial starts at the point in a defensive battle when the CR screen and the OP's have been pulled in and the attacking player is getting ready to hit the MLR. I am beginning work on Part II of my battalion defense tutorial which will address alot of recon issues in CM. Hope to have it posted in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photon Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 It would probably be best if they fought against a human opponent too, someone who will test their defenses more than the AI attacking. - Photon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 Originally posted by ScoutPL: I would be willing to do that. Even though with my attack and defense tutorials I think its already pretty obvious how I would approach the setup. However, let me make a qualification. In the defense, Pillar's big emphasis has been on the counter-reconnaissance screen forward of the actual MLR, rather then how to setup an actual defense in depth. He has addressed the complete defense but not with the thoroughness he has the CR fight. My approach has been exactly opposite. I dont think you can realistically portray any sort of focused reconnaissance effort using the CM system, for the myriad of reasons previously discussed ad nauseum on this board. CM was designed to simulate the actual clashing of the main bodies. So thats why my defense tutorial starts at the point in a defensive battle when the CR screen and the OP's have been pulled in and the attacking player is getting ready to hit the MLR. I am beginning work on Part II of my battalion defense tutorial which will address alot of recon issues in CM. Hope to have it posted in a few days. I think we understand (in theory) the differences you have. Given Pillar's latest Defense tutorial however, where he went into a defense in depth doctrine, I think this would help make a lot of sense to a lot of people. Speaking for myself, I am an empirical person. While I enjoy reading through doctrinal studies and discussions, I need to see the application of these theories to fully understand and be able to reproduce them myself. True, we've all read a lot and understand how you would approach the setup, but I would like to look at your defense right next to Pillar's defense on the same terrain. A picture's worth a thousand words, so they say. I'm glad to hear that you're willing, so if you think it's worth your time, it sounds like many hear would learn volumes from it. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Croda, you rock! - Meeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Croda, your sig is boring me, can i change it again? O, yeah, Pillar and Scout, I also think I/we should make it clear that any battle wouldn't be a 'whose philosophy is superior' kind of thing, rather it would be a great way to see stuff in action. And some bangs and booms too! hehe.. mmm bangs.. PeterNZ ------------------ "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious" - Oscar Wilde "Don't F*CK with Johnny Cash!" - Chupacabra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Actions speak louder than words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 For the record, I'm not even looking for you to fight the battle. I'd just like to be able to compare the setups. Peter...I'll be changing yours soon enough. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Croda, you rock! - Meeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 This reminds me of an idea I had for a wargame I used to play a lot, but never implemented. Some of you may have heard of Tactical Decision Games. For those that haven't, basically a TDG places you in a situation as a commander of a specific force with a specific mission. You are given a map, a description of the situation, and of course a problem (usually the enemy). You are then supposed to come up with a plan and issue orders to your troops. The point of the exercise is to get junior commanders thinking about tactics. If there is any interest in this sort of thing for CM, I will create a TDG that I will make available to anyone who wants it. Better would be if someone with a website would post it there (volunteers?) After a period of time had passed I would make the scenario file available so people could try out their plans, along with a new TDG. Given sufficient space, a few of the submitted solutions could be posted as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Originally posted by Croda: For the record, I'm not even looking for you to fight the battle. I'd just like to be able to compare the setups. That would be interesting. I don't think there is much point in them playing it out. Reading through Scout and Pillar's comments it has become clear that they do not approach the game the same way. Scout has made it clear that he feels the effectiveness of broad front "recon" in CM is due to game engine limitations only (i.e. it's gamey). Therefore I doubt he would be favorably inclined towards anyone who used it, no matter how effective it turned out to be. One thing that has come out of all the "gamey" discussions is that it is best to play someone who shares your definition of gamey. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV [This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 01-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I believe it was Kipling who said that about East and West. He also wrote, elsewhere, that "and the East and the West are one..." I think he was a little confused. According to Guiness, at one time the most popular greeting card had a cartoon of a young man and woman sitting under a tree. He: "Do you like Kipling?" She: "I don't know you naughty boy, I've never kippled." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 Was it not in "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner?" Where's Seanachai when I need him? And I appreciate you guys helping keep this thing bumped until Pillar can see it, but let's not get it too OT. I'd really like for Pillar and Scout to do this. I think it would teach me as well as others a great deal about application of doctrine. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Croda, you rock! - Meeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Sorry, just saw it now. My head has been far to buried in historic documents and other goodies from army.mil Yes, I'd enjoy doing this. A number of people have asked for a concretization of my article in the form of a defensive setup. Might take some time I'm afriad, I have a busy couple weeks ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Here's a link to a thread where Pillar showed me how to use scouts. There are pictures and diagrams on page 5 of the discussion. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/012238.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Croda, as you insitgated this idea you better come up with a map for them both. Of you go lad. PeterNZ ------------------ "Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious" - Oscar Wilde "Don't F*CK with Johnny Cash!" - Chupacabra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 It's from the opening line of the "Ballad of East and West" by Rudyard Kipling. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetherat Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 (clap clap clap) Well done Croda. Excellent idea. I too have read both these venerable posters reports and found them incredibly useful (don't worry Croda, I haven't put them to use yet!). I would be really interested to see the results. Case studies are always more easily understood when accompanied with visual aids. Especially touchy feely ones! stevetherat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 I think comparing the two methods for the same map is a good idea, but I don't think that actually playing one game is really going to prove anything. And if so, Fionn has already shown the validity of Pillar's approach by beating the pants of most of the professional soldiers playing the game. But one could argue that all this proves is that Fionn is a better player than the people against whom he played. And they might be right... For my part, I believe that there is more than one way to skin a cat; anyway, the debate between Pillar and ScoutPL is a reflection of the debate still going on in the US military about the limitations or advantages of maneuver warfare, and, among other things, the "decisive battle" syndrome. (See Leonhard's book for details). I don't expect the debate to be completely resolved soon, but I find it interesting that CM is a good enough simulation to warrant such specialized discussions. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Fionn and I started a game just recently. I'm sure he'll totally whoop me back to the little cave I came from, but it should be interesting to see these things demonstrated. I'm still a student when it comes to practising the theory, but I wonder if a select batch of people would be interested in a little AAR of how it goes? My email is publicly available (see my bio) and I'd probably prefer to do it as a mailing list. I'd have to talk with Fionn some more about it, but is the interest there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 How old are you Henri? 12? You should be careful what you say in a forum where no one can reach out and touch you. Such false bravado makes enemies fast. Professional soldiers dont train their asses off to play games. They do it to win wars. Dont be naive and confuse the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by ScoutPL: How old are you Henri? 12? You should be careful what you say in a forum where no one can reach out and touch you. Such false bravado makes enemies fast. Professional soldiers dont train their asses off to play games. They do it to win wars. Dont be naive and confuse the two. Hence: "But one could argue that all this proves is that Fionn is a better player than the people against whom he played. And they might be right..." ?? [This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 A fine idea. I'd like to enter too - LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Originally posted by ScoutPL: How old are you Henri? 12? You should be careful what you say in a forum where no one can reach out and touch you. Such false bravado makes enemies fast. Professional soldiers dont train their asses off to play games. They do it to win wars. Dont be naive and confuse the two. Henri's comments seemed thoughtful and well-stated to me. Certainly there was nothing provocative, he merely made an innocent, if ironic, comment - that a civilian could attain a measure of success against those currently serving in the military. Your post, on the other hand, seems like so much macho bull**** from a 12 year old. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that playing Combat Mission is akin to real soldiering. It's evident Henri touched a nerve with you - you were quick to read a personal attack into Henri's comments. If you think a military pedigree is going to impress people here, I regret to say it won't. This is a crowd of people who don't train their asses off, they play games. So impress us with your game playing and don't feel the need to remind us of what you do for a living offline; it's really quite irrelevant. Some of the best historians (and game designers ie BTS) have never served a day in their lives. It's not necessarily a prerequisite for writing books or playing games. [This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 01-31-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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