More doubts in CM

[Tero]

>Sure, but the 76i was fixed in factories --

>the difference was that a wrecked Sherman

>that did not brun was returned to service

>in weeks, the Russian tank in a year or two

>(unless it was not damaged in the first

>place).

Referring to

http://www.winterwar.com/Tactics/FINatTactics.htm#tank losses

All losses 3179, combat losses 1904, technical failures 1275, beyond repair 368. In 1941 when the Finnish troops took back the Isthmus it was not littered with unrecovered Red Army tanks.

I'd have to say your argument about the Soviets not recovering is wrong.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: tero ]

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

The Iraq war was an example of a Eastern, attrition based army meeting a Western firepower based army on the conventional battlefield. For that matter, so was all of the Arab Isreali conflicts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So was the Eastern Front in WW2 if you want to make that sort of distinction!

But it's really quite false - your so-called "attrition" armies cannot fight without supplies any more than "western" ones can.

[Slapdragon]

First off, we need to quit pointing at Apples and wondering why they are not citrus fruit. Russians had far far less field recovery. Field recovery is the taking of a tank and returing it to service by field armies. This is an apple. Dragging away a tank for eventual repair by a factor is different, it is an orange. One gets you the tank in a few weeks, maybe a month, one is a year. This is an orange.

As for the difference between attrition style armies and technological armies, you will have to argue that with West Point et al, I am merely repeating the current military theory. No one said that attrition armies do not need supply, only that they do not worry as much about supporting formations and equipment damaged or killed in the field.

[Wilhammer]

The American/British method of recovery, as well as the German was designed out of neccesity, they were ridicuolosly far away from the factories.

The Russian system, for Russia, makes more sense. They shipped from factory to front quicker, and thus remanufacture after the battlefield was secured made more sense, since the delivery time for a replacement was cheaper for them, esp. in time.

[mensch]

ok here's what I (we) learned in our armour training. And yes fear of brew up.

Is there a penetration hit? yes, Bail (if your alive) try to pull out wounded crews if possible and head back to your lines if you can.

1) we had small arms to fight with if it got down to it

2) I would not try to dismount the 7.62mm gun from our Grizzly/Cougar (since it took some tools and time to do that as well)

3) you have enough ammo (small arms) to give you cover fire but prolonged engagement is asking for death.

4) we want to live (who doesn't)

5) let infantry do infantry fighting

6) we are more important alive then dead to crew a new tank the next day(s)

7) Heroic medals are for your family all to but remember you by for your military service.

8) no radio, no call for support, no chance why go scouting around??? you can debrief intel when you get back if its worth anything.

Also if there was a hint of smoke (not from the guns) in the crew compartment, Bail make sure everyone is out and hit the external switch to activate the fire extinguisher and run back to your lines, the recovery crews can figure out what happened.

Fire drill was simple that way, smoke, bail, extinguish, base.

I can tell you with a few rounds of 76mm and MG ammo and your (tank) is smoking you don't want to play sherlock holms and find out the problem. (revert to fire drill)

If its from the engine,

1) it can explode (bad)

2) poisionous gases kill.. (duh)

3) fire drill

Dud rounds were the same!!

if the firing pin struck and the round did not go off.. bail wait outside a few metres (50 or so best 100) and a few minutes... if the round does not cook off , two guys or three could (underline could) go back. Driver to get the hell out of there and loader/gunner to open the chamber throw the round out and then the driver puts full gas to get away.

Now I have "0" experience from Battle, and that is all in theory. I would think we would act accordingly in combat (I would hope) as for that dud round hard call on a battlefield it would be different but we were told an exploding round in the chamber is not good (very bad) maybe (and I am assuming very much) we would ditch the round out and drive outta there but if we did ditch we would head back to base. Again let the recovery crews deal with it.

Most likely the vehicle would be hit by something by the time we waited for the round to cook off.

na ya. But I would never call a tanker a wuss for bailing bud... drive around and crew one for a while, its your Lass, its your pride and joy but it can also be your coffin.

We met some vet tankers and got to talk to them... one word:

RESPECT.

[Triumvir]

Just after I finished my conscription, another gun battalion did a live firing in which a 155mm round exploded in the chamber. In the open, with no ricochets, 2 people were killed and 10 wounded. I'd hate to think what would have happened inside a crew compartment.

A friend told me about an Israeli tanker who was killed because a static discharge blew the round he was loading into the ammo racks (which could have been avoided if he'd followed the SOP.) The tank was a write-off.

Bailing from a hung fire round isn't that hard a call. Even in wartime you have to be worried about safety and being killed by your own rounds seems worse than being killed by someone else's.

[Scipio]

Back at the front

Well, when I read all the messages, they have all one common sense : the tank crews (and also the gun crews ??) were much valuable to be wasted to fight in more or less damaged tanks. It's good and realistic that the bail out, survive and man another tank. Correct?

But now I think on something I've read just two or three days ago about the CM victory conditions and the points you gain for destroyed/killed enemy units. It said something like, for example, a normal infantry soldier counts 3 points, a crewman 2 points. Is that right? If so, then it would be a very big error, a tanker (gunner?) should be at least double so valuable like a normal soldier.

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

Back at the front

Well, when I read all the messages, they have all one common sense : the tank crews (and also the gun crews ??) were much valuable to be wasted to fight in more or less damaged tanks. It's good and realistic that the bail out, survive and man another tank. Correct?

But now I think on something I've read just two or three days ago about the CM victory conditions and the points you gain for destroyed/killed enemy units. It said something like, for example, a normal infantry soldier counts 3 points, a crewman 2 points. Is that right? If so, then it would be a very big error, a tanker (gunner?) should be at least double so valuable like a normal soldier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would suck. then if your truck was knocked out 500m in front of the exit, then you would practically HAVE to save the panicked, low ammo crew. exiting scenarios would get an extra level of difficulty (and annoyance)

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

It said something like, for example, a normal infantry soldier counts 3 points, a crewman 2 points. Is that right? If so, then it would be a very big error, a tanker (gunner?) should be at least double so valuable like a normal soldier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting - where did you read that? I thought it was the other way round?

[WWB]

Just saw this very relevant statistic on www.strategypage.com:

During World War II the Red Army deployed some 108,700 tanks, of which 83,500 - 76.8-percent - were lost in combat.

And you wonder why they did not invest in wreckers to tow the things?

WWB

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Interesting - where did you read that? I thought it was the other way round?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SORRY - I was wrong here. Correct is this:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Units are worth what they cost, except arty spotters (30 points). Crewmembers are worth 6 points regular, 8 veteran. squads are computed by men, all worth the same, HQ alike. Capture is twice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It was a post by Redwolf in this threat

[Torsten Glacer]

Another good book to read would be Panzer Battles by Maj.Gen.F.W.von Mellenthin, a member of Hitler's war council and over-all a superb tactician. He describes most every major battle from Polish campaign to the very last battles of the war in Europe. Although he doesn't go into graphic detail what the soldiers went through he paints a pretty good picture of the war and teaches you a view things about the tactics used by the Germans in WW2

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Torsten Glacer ]

[blargh..typos to be edited]

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Torsten Glacer ]

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

It was a post by Redwolf in this <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah that's what I thought.

I would second 'Panzer Battles' as a good read. Reading it at the moment, and it tgives you a good overview of the major battles. Mellenthin has a bit of an axe to grind, but seeing when the book was written, that is not surprising.

Regarding crews bailing, just in case anyone is interesting, I found a few references to crews not bailing when the tank was hit in 'Tank tracks'. It is in the appendix, more correctly in the citations for decorations awarded. The equation is roughly:

Tank was hit, crew did not bail, TC got an immediate MC or MM, if he survived.

There were about half a dozen of these in the whole regiment throughout period 1944-5. There is also an MC for a Sergeant whose tank was shot up at Maltot, and who continued hanging around, directing infantry and some tanks.

For some reason the fact that they awarded medals to these guys indicates to me that it was not expected behaviour.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Ah that's what I thought.

I would second 'Panzer Battles' as a good read. Reading it at the moment, and it tgives you a good overview of the major battles. Mellenthin has a bit of an axe to grind, but seeing when the book was written, that is not surprising.

Regarding crews bailing, just in case anyone is interesting, I found a few references to crews not bailing when the tank was hit in 'Tank tracks'. It is in the appendix, more correctly in the citations for decorations awarded. The equation is roughly:

Tank was hit, crew did not bail, TC got an immediate MC or MM, if he survived.

There were about half a dozen of these in the whole regiment throughout period 1944-5. There is also an MC for a Sergeant whose tank was shot up at Maltot, and who continued hanging around, directing infantry and some tanks.

For some reason the fact that they awarded medals to these guys indicates to me that it was not expected behaviour. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was also a situation when 5 tanks of the 761st were hit in a row by an AT gun ambush, and the crews abandoned and proceeded to charge and destroy the AT guns on foot. The leader of the charge was wounded three times, and later blown up doing something equally fool hardy. He was given the bronze star for his actions, later changed to a DSC in 1976.

Of course tales like these just prove the rarity of these sort of actions.

[Torsten Glacer]

Hell I'd be upset if I was a German general, I mean getting absolutely swarmed by the Allies couldn't have been fun. And although Hitler's government did have some stupid racist overtones is generally worked very well and the people were mostly content (earlier on) I'd be disturbed too if my leader was amde out to be some monster. (BOTH sides did horrible things it wasn't just horrible Nazi Monster Kill Kill)

Besides what do we see zionists in Israel doing today? Trying to commit genocide and at the same time using the Holocaust to gain support and money. They lost my sympathy a long time ago (Not that I am condoning it but I am very sick of hearing it and I am sure most Germans are sick of hearing it as well)

[Enoch]

Must...resist..temptation....don't ....feed...the troll. ARRRGGHH!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And although Hitler's government did have some stupid racist overtones is generally worked very well and the people

were mostly content (earlier on) I'd be disturbed too if my leader was amde out to be some monster. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but I just can't let this pass. Racial overtones. That is the understatment of the century. I would guess that there were many who were not content with Hitler's government as they ended up in concentration or extermination camps.

Phew, normalcy now returning.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Enoch ]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Torsten Glacer:

Hell I'd be upset if I was a German general, I mean getting absolutely swarmed by the Allies couldn't have been fun. And although Hitler's government did have some stupid racist overtones is generally worked very well and the people were mostly content (earlier on) I'd be disturbed too if my leader was amde out to be some monster. (BOTH sides did horrible things it wasn't just horrible Nazi Monster Kill Kill)

Besides what do we see zionists in Israel doing today? Trying to commit genocide and at the same time using the Holocaust to gain support and money. They lost my sympathy a long time ago (Not that I am condoning it but I am very sick of hearing it and I am sure most Germans are sick of hearing it as well)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, the Germans were sweat hearts. Loved by the people and loving to them. Forced into a war they did not desire, misunderstood by all of Europe, in the end the poor NAZI's are relegated to the trash heap of history by evil zionist propaganda.

Then you have the evil Isrealis today. Damn bastards have the gaul to defend their country. In 1948 there were 250,000 Jewish refugees, all taken in by the souless Jews, while the 250,000 Palestinian refugees where used as pawns by the upstanding Arabs and forced to live in camps. Dang Isrealis, always complaining about some genocide that happened two generations ago. How clear headed of you to see through their plot.

By the way Torsten, I have this great multilevel marketing scheme that I need some really sharp pegs to participate in, and you sound like just the type I need. You send me 5 dollars, and then sign up 5 people to also send me 5 dollars, and you 2 dollars, so that you double your money. Let me know if you want to be one of my first salesmen.

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

By the way Torsten, I have this great multilevel marketing scheme that I need some really sharp pegs to participate in, and you sound like just the type I need. You send me 5 dollars, and then sign up 5 people to also send me 5 dollars, and you 2 dollars, so that you double your money. Let me know if you want to be one of my first salesmen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not trying to sell that bridge again, are you Slappy? Anyone want a Volvo 340, 87k miles, needs a pit of spit and polish, good runner?

Two in this thread and counting...

[Torsten Glacer]

I sense a desire of someone in here to flame? I could be mistaken..

Did I condone the holocaust? No

Did I say the Germans were all good? No

Did I even make out that I supported these statements? No

Sir you are desiring an arguement which you won't have. But I will tell you this, the world isn't black and white and the notion that the Germans were simply evil is incorrect. But I guess you condone the Israelis slaughter of Palestinians and their rabbies constantly preaching that all other races are inferior and the Jewish people are the true Master Race (which simply isn't right)

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

You are not trying to sell that bridge again, are you Slappy? Anyone want a Volvo 340, 87k miles, needs a pit of spit and polish, good runner?

Two in this thread and counting... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hell Andreas, you enrolled twice, so I would not be too public about it, if you know what I mean.

By the way, did you get the shipment of herbal viagra I sent you? I forgot to peel off the "oregano" labels, but those are just camo, it really is spanish fly and rhino horn disgusied to look like oregano.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Torsten Glacer:

I sense a desire of someone in here to flame? I could be mistaken..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know what really grinds me? Lousy Burgundy wine, thats what.

Unless you know exactly what you are getting, you can't seem to find a decent bottle of Burgundy for under 30 bucks.

Thank god my wife is going to visit her family in France this summer. She'll be smack in the middle of the Burgundy region and should be able to pick up some decent wine. Anyone have a suggestion?

PS. I hear the 200 Bordeaux are going to be excellent. even better than the 95s...

[Scipio]

I don't know what most Germans think about it - but I as German say : YES, I'm sick to be acused for 12 years in the history of my loved country. But I guess this goes a little bit of topic. BTW - everyone seems to forget that Germany, beneath the extermination of 50.000.000 innocent people, did the same job like the US a few years later in Korea and Vietnam : fight against the communists. Of cause, it's much more honrable when the US do so. But this goes really off topic, and I suggest you continue this elsewhere, before this threat is locked. Thank you.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Scipio]

SO, I guess my doubts about the vulnerability of tanks is solved, that leaves us with the minefields...

BTW, here's another thing I've noticed :

a) a gun or mortar (on-map) can be 'knocked-out' or 'abandoned'. Okay, when it's knocked out, it's kaput, the crew leaves to brew coffee and eat some Butterbrot (=sandwich). But what is an abandoned gun? I guess it's still operable, but the crew has run for cover, cause the situation was a little bit to hot. Why can't they return to the gun later when situations has cooled down?

I noticed that crews of support weapons usually try to flee with their heavy weapons. That's very unrealistic, IMO, especially when they are in open country. The first thing they would do is to throw away the mortar/gun/machinegun etcetra and run for their lives, maybe to try later to man their abandoned guns.

c) why can a machinegun not be knocked out with a surviving crew? Is a mg not so vulnerable like a 60mm mortar?

d) Maybe that surviving crew would be able to man the gun of a - maybe killed or routed crew? This could open some new horizons in the game...

Mh, that's appears to be somehow realeted to the bailing tank crew problem.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

BTW - everyone seems to forget that Germany, beneath the extermination of 50.000.000 innocent people, did the same job like the US a few years later in Korea and Vietnam : fight against the communists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your right, set aside that minor matter of 50 million people (a drop in the bucket -- easily tossed aside in history, especially when you rehabilitate the NAZI party as the best thing that ever happened to Germany), and Germany was doing just what the US was doing in Korea, fighting communists. Damn Commie Poles, French, English, Belgiums, Norwegians, Dutch, Danes, Luxumbourgers, Rumanians, Czechs, Greeks, Slovaks, Serbs, and the rest of the commie societies that Germany fought under its enlightened leader and great head, Adolph Hitler. I feel so bad for Germany as it is so misunderstood.

Hey Andreas, what do you think? You are German, give us some insight into the feelings of the German people toward that great advancer of German society, the NAZI party.

140 years ago my direct relative was a General for the slave holding south. My family fought for this nation, and for the rigtht to hold slaves. Forget states rights, I just have to read the family papers to know that it was crap invented to cover up the moral imbalance of fighting to maintain slavery (although noted members of the CSA did indeed abhore slavery and fought more for their homes than slavery, such as RE Lee).

I can say that this was wrong, my people were wrong, and my society was wrong. I am not saying that FDR is wrong, or that the German people of today are guilty, just that when people try to sugar coat the NAZI war machine or any of the facsist regimes, it is a bit self serving.

Although I have to admit at least modern Germans don't screw with the NAZI flag. I never saw one once in my trip to Germany. Here in the South, we still fly the Confederate flag, and often fly the wrong one (Bedford Forrest's KKK flag rather than the correct State battle flag).

[Torsten Glacer]

Flame-Dragon I think he means during the Cold War, when West Germany was made to be a buffer zone against the Soviets in case they invaded. Boy you really are a hotheaded one!

And to think the fascist regime was totally bad is to make a mistake, in many ways they were more efficient than a democracy (one of the least efficient forms of government today) But hey as long as people get "neat stuff" and more money everything is ok! Yay for total capitalism!

Do not think for one second that a democracy will last forever because it won't. It is not the ultimate government although it sure makes itself out to be...