Tank Gunnery Optics

[aka_tom_w]

My FAVOURITE topic

This is not really news but I have been reading about gunnery optics at this page:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/turret/pegunnery/pegunnery.shtml

OK so it is about gunnery optics in "that OTHER" WWII tank sim game.....

BUT that does not mean this stuff is not fascinating!!

Quoted from the above page:

Armor Piercing Shells

* Armor Piercing (AP). The AP round relied on its own weight to penetrate the enemy’s armor.  The higher the muzzle velocity, the more penetration your AP round will have.

* Armor Piercing Capped Ballistic Cap (APCBC). The APCBC round relies not only on its own weight to penetrate the enemy’s armor, but the APCBC is also filled with High Explosive that causes increased internal damage to both systems and crew.  The APCBC has a ‘windshield’ to give it better flight performance and a ballistic cap that aids the shot from shattering against armor.

* Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (APCR). The APCR round is made with a tungsten carbide inner core, which will punch its way through armor.  For flight performance effects and to aid the shot from shattering against armor plating, the APCR round has an aluminum alloy ballistic cap with Phenolic plastic filling.  To increase the APCR muzzle velocity, a softer metal that compresses in a special tapered bore surrounds the tungsten core.

* Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot (APDS). The APDS round has a tungsten carbide core, which is surrounded by either a plastic or a light magnesium alloy sleeve or sabot.  The alloy sleeves falls off after the round is fired, thus sending the tungsten carbide core down range to the target.  This round can be fired from normal barrels; no special tapering of the barrels are necessary.

* High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT). The HEAT round uses a directed explosion, rather than mass or weight, to penetrate armor.  The inner makings of the HEAT round is explosive filler that is a molded into a "shaped charge."  When it strikes something, the explosion is channeled forward into a stream, which cuts through armor, melting it along the way and including it in the stream.  The enemy’s own armor then becomes part of the weapon that will cause the damage to the internal systems and crew.  An advantage to HEAT rounds is that they can be fired from normal barrels and their effectiveness doesn't go down with range.

General Purpose Shells

* High Explosive (HE). The HE round is filled with High Explosives.  It may also contain a fuse assembly to allow the shooter the choice of how he wants the HE round to explode.  HE rounds are mainly against infantry and other non-armored targets.

* Smoke. The smoke round is filled with chemicals that form smoke when the round hits a solid surface.  Smoke rounds are used primarily for screening.

Ammunition Trajectory

The basic flight path of any shell in flight is an arc.  The ‘arch’ of the shell’s arc depends on the muzzle velocity and other items.  Hence the higher the muzzle velocity, the flatter the ‘arch’ of the shell and the more accurate the gunner can be.

 

 

THE OPTICS AND GUNNERY

German Gunnery

Zeiss Optics

To accurately fire in any of the German tanks, you will need to understand the Zeiss Optics, shown below.  Don’t let it be intimating...with practice you to will be able to master it.

 

Summary

U.S. tankers...do not get into a long-distance duel with German tankers, period.  Use a lot of smoke and maneuver to gain a hull down fighting position less then 500m from your target.  Also, a flank shot is preferred.  Refer back to my other articles on the tactics that you may need to survive on the battlefield.

German tankers...learn your optics well.  Once you do, you will be the king of the battlefield, plain and simple.  Use your better optics and better firepower to shoot targets at longer ranges.  Don’t let the enemy close in on you.  Make sure you have a good fighting position.  Refer back to my other articles on the tactics that you may need to survive on the battlefield.

That is about it for the basic World War Two gunnery concepts.  Sharpen your gunnery skills and I will see you on the field of honor!

©2001 SimHQ.com

your comments????

-tom w

[edgars]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> German tankers...learn your optics well. <hr></blockquote>

Please explain to me, what was so special about Zeiss optics that has to be learned well?

[aka_tom_w]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ciks:

Please explain to me, what was so special about Zeiss optics that has to be learned well?<hr></blockquote>

Hi

I suspect this thread may be locked or moved shortly. BUT that aside all you need to do is read this web page:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/turret/pegunnery/pegunnery.shtml

and look at the way the German optics are modeled and look at the way the US optics are modeled and you will know the difference. For the record in This game CMBO there are NO optics modeled and the Germans are granted no advantage even though it is clear they had superior optics and range finders. It is in fact so clear they did have an advantage in optics and while firing from long range that it will be now be modeled in CMBB on the Russian front where longer distance engagements will mean the German gunnery optics advantage should be modeled and be obvious, and observable by both players in combat situations at long range.

To answer your question:

Simply put:

"Step One: Determining Range

Sorry troops, the American sights had no way to find range .  However, here is an old old virtual tanker’s trick...if I recall my training correctly, the coax could be used to roughly gauge the range.  Say the coax range is set out to 800m.  With that knowledge, I would move my sight up to 800 meters and fire a burst of coax.  If it fell beyond the target, I knew it was closer then 800m.  If the bullets fell in front of the target, then I knew the target was further then 800m."

©2001 SimHQ.com

hope that helps

BUT it doesn't matter because differences in gunnery optics between the Germans and the Allies are not modeled in CMBO, because to be fair to BTS and CMBO, the game is NOT a tank sim.

-tom w

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]</p>

[edgars]

Thanks, i'll read that page.

[Dan Robertson]

Well considering how many errors are in that you shouldn't take it too seriously.

AP, APC and APCBC don't have to contain a burster, this was usually dependant on which country they are from. Some countries also ad HE to the designation while others such as the US don't.

APCR can't be used from a squeeze bore since it is Rigid. Armour Piericing Composite Squeeze Bore may be used in this sort of gun.

HEAT rounds do not actually melt the armour. They apply sufficent force to more the armour in a liquid like manner but the metal is actually still nearly as strong as it was before.

Spalling is a result of virtually all armour piercing weapons to a greater or lesser degree. However early HEAT rounds were known for not producing very good terminal effects within the vehicle. In fact unless they hit amunition or fuel the vehicle can usually be driven away.

Zeiss optics aren't a type to themselves they simply include a stadia ranging set. You rotate a dial until a triangle is the correct size. The triangle is 1 m across the bottom so you manipulate it until the enemy tank is 3 trianges wide across the bottom. You now have the range.

However the best Tiger gunners like Bobby Wohl set their range finders to 800m and then estimated the aim over or above.

[aka_tom_w]

"Zeiss optics aren't a type to themselves they simply include a stadia ranging set. You rotate a dial until a triangle is the correct size. The triangle is 1 m across the bottom so you manipulate it until the enemy tank is 3 trianges wide across the bottom. You now have the range."

OK

I agree with your post and your point, the issue however remains that Germans had much better optics and range finding devices to determine the range to the target than did their Allied tank gunner counter parts.

-tom w

[Slapdragon]

I wouldn't say much better, at least on the west, but conditionally better. Much discussion went into how much the optics effected the aim compared to things like how flat the trajectory was, and it is really just difficult to assign a value to optics other than to say they were better and they needed to be to take advantage of the flatter trajectory of the weapons.

[SGT_Gold]

While the German optics were (and are) much better than the American optics, the real difference in the gunnery was training. The Germans trained for longer ranges because they had guns that could kill at longer ranges. Remember that for the last three years of the war the Germans fought a largly defensive war, whick lent itself to stationary long range gunnery from camoflaged positions.

[Simon Fox]

Surely Zeiss is just one of a number of German optics manufacturers?

I mean were most German tank optics even produced by Zeiss? What about Leitz?

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

Surely Zeiss is just one of a number of German optics manufacturers?

I mean were most German tank optics even produced by Zeiss? What about Leitz?<hr></blockquote>

Zeiss is the only name i've ever seen come up when optics are talked about. Granted there are people around with a hell of a lot more research background who would know better, but that's all I've ever seen. AFAIK, Zeiss made all the naval optics too.

[edward_n_kelly]

Originally posted by Dan Robertson:

Well considering how many errors are in that you shouldn't take it too seriously.

AP, APC and APCBC don't have to contain a burster, this was usually dependant on which country they are from. Some countries also ad HE to the designation while others such as the US don't.

APCR can't be used from a squeeze bore since it is Rigid. Armour Piericing Composite Squeeze Bore may be used in this sort of gun.

[/Q]

And for our "grest and powerful friends" that is HVAP ;-0.

[Q]

HEAT rounds do not actually melt the armour. They apply sufficent force to more the armour in a liquid like manner but the metal is actually still nearly as strong as it was before.

[/Q]

Isn't the "Monroe Effect" reliant on the gas jet from the explosive focused on the target? Later additions of a copper foil liner to the cavity improved the performance because the jet became more stable ?

How does your explanation work in the case of the "Beehive" demolition devices used on and since Eban Emal ?

[Q]

Spalling is a result of virtually all armour piercing weapons to a greater or lesser degree. However early HEAT rounds were known for not producing very good terminal effects within the vehicle. In fact unless they hit amunition or fuel the vehicle can usually be driven away.

[/Q]

Seem to have missed HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) or the "Wallbuster".

Spalling was the effect sought by this type of round.

[Slapdragon]

Bosch GMBH had a company that made optics with factories both in Germany and the United States. Oddly enough during the war both factories remained open making optics and other implements for both sides. This gets even more strange when you realize that Bosch optics, used on many German marks of tanks, where also used on the Sherman tank in the United States. Swarovski was in a similar boat, with optic plants in both Austria and the United States, both used by their respective countries to manufacture optics, often from the same line process. (Bayer, IBM, Singer, all had plants in "enemy countries). Leupold, Volpel & Co. was a US country that made Allied optics and benifited from German manufacturing processes migrating to American factories from Federalized German property.

Several smaller optics houses in germany would later become Stiemer directly after the war.

[Moon]

Here is a list of German optics manufacturers:

(sorry if it looks a little messy, I'm too lazy to format it...)

CODE LETTERS FOR NAME OF MANUFACTURER FROM WWII GERMAN OPTICAL PRODUCTS

Compiled by Peter Abrahams from 'German Military Letter Codes', John Walter, 1996, East Sussex, Small Arms Research Publications;

and earlier, less authoritative lists.

CODE MANUFACTURER CITY COUNTRY

b e h ERNST LEITZ. WETZLAR GERMANY

b e k HENSOLDT WERK FUR OPTIK UND MECHANIK HERBORN GERMANY

b l c CARL ZEISS, MILITARABTEILUNG JENA JENA GERMANY

b m h JIRASEK (not in Walter) PRAGUE CZECH

b m j M. HENSOLDT & SOHNE, A.G. WETZLAR GERMANY

b m t C. A. STEINHEIL SOHNE, GmbH MUNICH GERMANY

b p d C. P. GOERZ, GmbH VIENNA AUSTRIA

b v f C. REICHERT VIENNA AUSTRIA

b y g JOH. WYKSEN, K.G. KATTOWITZ POLAND

b z z I.G.-FARBENINDUSTRIE, CAMERAWERK MUNICH GERMANY

c a d KARL KAHLES (telescopic sights) VIENNA AUSTRIA

c a g D. SWAROVSKI WATTENS/TIROL AUSTRIA

c a u KODAK AKTIENGESELLSCHAFT, DR. NAGEL WERK STUTTGART GERMANY

c c x OPTISCHE UND FEINMECHANISCHE WERKE, HUGO MEYER & CO. GOERLITZ GERMANY

c l b DR. F. A. WOHLER KASSEL GERMANY

c l n ED. SPRENGER BERLIN GERMANY

c r h FRANZ SCHMIDT & HAENSCH BERLIN GERMANY

c r n HANSEATISCHE WERKSTATTEN FUR FEINMECHANIK UND OPTIK, FRIEDRICHS & Co. HAMBURG GERMANY

c r o R. FUESS, formerly J. G. GREINER & GEISSLER BERLIN GERMANY

c x n EMIL BUSCH, A.G. RATHENOW GERMANY

d d v OCULUS (optometrist equipment, possibly gunsights) BERLIN GERMANY

d d x VOIGTLAENDER & SOHN, A.G. BRAUNSCHWEIG GERMANY

d k l JOSEF SCHNEIDER KREUZNACH GERMANY

d o q DEUTSCHE SPIEGELGLAS A.G. (telescopes, lenses) LEINE GERMANY

d o w WAFFENWERKE BRUNN A.G. (1943-OPTICOTECHNA GmbH) PRERAU CZECH.

d p g ADOX KAMERAWERK GmbH (cameras) WIESBADEN GERMANY

d p v ZEISS IKON A.G. DRESDEN GERMANY

d p w ZEISS IKON A.G. GOERZWERK BERLIN GERMANY

d p x ZEISS IKON A.G., CONTESSAWERK STUTTGART GERMANY

d y m RUNGE & KAULFUSS RATHENOW GERMANY

d y s HEINRICH ZEISS, UNIONZEISS K.G. ('apparently optical' BERLIN GERMANY

d z l OPTISCHE ANSTALT OIGEE GmbH BERLIN GERMANY

e a f MECHANOPTIK GESELLSCHAFT FUR PRAZISIONSTECHNIK, AUDE & REIPERT BABELSBERG GERMANY

e a w R. WINKEL GmbH GOETTINGEN GERMANY

e e d KURBI & NIGGELOH (photographic equipment) RADEVORMWALD GERMANY

e s o G. RODENSTOCK MUNICH GERMANY

e s u STEINHEIL SOHNE GmbH (telescopes & optics) MUNICH GERMANY

e u g OPTISCHE PRAZISIONS WERKE GmbH WARSAW POLAND

f c o SENDLINGER OPTISCHE GLASWERKE GmbH BERLIN GERMANY

f j t PHOTOGRAMMETRIE GmbH (aerial recon. cameras) MUNICH GERMANY

f l n FRANZ RAPSCH A.G. (sights, often subcontractor to Busch) RATHENOW GERMANY

f v s SPINDLER & HOYER K.G. GOTTINGEN GERMANY

f v x BECK & SOHNE KASSEL GERMANY

f w r OPTISCHE ANSTALT SAALFELD GmbH SAALFELD GERMANY

f x p HANS KOLLMORGEN GmbH BERLIN GERMANY

g a g F. MOLLENKOPF STUTTGART GERMANY

g k p RUF & Co., formerly CARL SCHUTZ KASSEL GERMANY

g u g UNGARNISCHE OPTISCHE WERKE A.G. BUDAPEST HUNGARY

g u j WERNER D. KUEHN BERLIN GERMANY

g w v ERNST PLANK NURNBERG GERMANY

g x l FRANKE & HEIDECKE (photographic equipment) BRAUNSCHWEIG GERMANY

g x p HOMRICH & SOHN (photographic equipment)

h d v OPTISCHE WERK OSTERODE GmbH OSTERODE GERMANY

h f o VALENTIN LINHOF OHG (photographic equipment) MUNICH GERMANY

h k m CARL BRAUN KG NURNBERG GERMANY

h n a KORELLE WERKE, G.H. BRANDTMANN & Co. (photographic) DRESDEN GERMANY

h r w HOH & HAHNE (photographic reproduction equipment) LEIPZIG GERMANY

h w t IHAGEE KAMERAWERK, STEENBERGEN & Co. (cameras) DRESDEN GERMANY

h x h A. KRUSS HAMBURG GERMANY

j f n TETENAL PHOTOWERK, Dr. TRIEPEL, K.G. (photographic equipment) BERLIN GERMANY

j f p DR. CARL LEISS BERLIN GERMANY

j n h F. TUTEMANN (lens holders & optical equipment) LUDENSCHEID GERMANY

j o n VOIGTLANDER-GEVAERT (cameras) BERLIN GERMANY

j u x NEDINSCO, NEDERLANDSCHE INSTRUMENTEN, (vehicle & aircraft instruments?) VENLO NETHERLANDS

j v e ERNST LUDWIG WEIXDORF GERMANY

j x n HELMUT KORTH BERLIN GERMANY

k h c OTTO HIMMLER (microscopes, optical equipment) BERLIN GERMANY

k l n ERNST & WILHELM BERTRAM (photographic equipment) MUNICH GERMANY

k n a DER ROBOT, BERNING & Co., K.G. (photographic equipment) DUSSELDORF GERMANY

k q c JOS. SCHNEIDER & Co., K.G. GOETTINGEN GERMANY

k r q EMIL BUSCH A.G. (assembled from foreign components) RATHENOW GERMANY

k w c GAMMA FEINMECHANISCHE & OPTISCHE WERKE BUDAPEST HUNGARY

k x v A. JACKENROLL GmbH BERLIN GERMANY

l a e HEINRICH ZEISS, UNION ZEISS K.G. GOSTINGEN

l f n REFLEKTA-KAMERAFABRIK, C. RICHTER (cameras) THARANDT GERMANY

l m q CARL ZEISS (assembled from foreign components) JENA GERMANY

l w g OPTISCHE WERKE OSTERODE GmbH (assembled from foreign components) OSTERODE GERMANY

l w w HUET ET CIE PARIS FRANCE

l w x OPTIQUE ET PRECISION DE LEVALLOIS, PARIS LEVALLOIS-PERRET FRANCE

l w y SOCIETE OPTIQUE ET MECANIQUE DE HAUTE PRECISION PARIS FRANCE

m b v I.G. FARBENINDUSTRIE, A.G.; AGFA (cameras) BERLIN GERMANY

m c a FOTOWERK, Dr. C. SCHLEUSSNER, GmbH (photographic equipment) FRANKFURT GERMANY

m t q PHOTOCHEMISCHE FABRIK ROLAND RISSE GmbH (photographic equipment) FLORSHEIM GERMANY

m t r VOIGTLANDER & SOHN, A.G. (cameras) BERLIN GERMANY

m t u A. LORENZ (MTU also used for AEG electrical equipment) GUTENFELD

m t v A. LORENZ DRESDEN GERMANY

n m s RICHARD HOLZ BERLIN GERMANY

n x t S.A.I. OTTICO MECCANICA E RILEVAMENTI AEROFOTOGRAMMETRICI

(stereoscopic aerial photography equipment) ROME ITALY

o c p AKTOPHOT GmbH (photographic equipment) PRAG-SABECHTLITZ

o c v W. KLAZAR (precision engineering; reportedly photographic equipment) PRAG

o k c HAUFF A.G. (photographic equipment) STUTTGART GERMANY

p v f C. REICHERT VIENNA AUSTRIA

r l n CARL ZEISS JENA GERMANY

A.G. = AKTIENGESELLSCHAFT; JOINT STOCK COMPANY

GmbH = GESELLSCHAFT MIT BESCHRANKTER HAFTUNG; LIMITED COMPANY

I.G. = INTERRESENGEMEINSCHAFT; UNION OF INTERESTS

K.G. = KOMMANDITGESELLSCHAFT; LIMITED PARTNERSHIP

OHG = OFFENE HANDELSGESELLSCHAFT; PRIVATE FIRM (literally, 'open trading company')

umlauts are omitted

[Slapdragon]

The more I read on this, the more I am surprised to find out that nearly every western country had German based optical manufacturing in it, and that optic designs were virtually the same because they were from the same machines, made to the same processes, using engineers trained in the same techniques.

[Spook]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

The more I read on this, the more I am surprised to find out that nearly every western country had German based optical manufacturing in it, and that optic designs were virtually the same because they were from the same machines, made to the same processes, using engineers trained in the same techniques.<hr></blockquote>

There was, however, one important difference in regards to "design philosophy" of optics equipment between the US and German engineer.

My younger brother, also an engineer like myself, works for a company that builds surveying equipment and leveling devices. He's also been pursuing and restoring "historical" optics equipment, including a balloon transit as a recent purchase.

In terms of optics adjustment design, my brother mentions that for earlier equipment, the USA & Germans had different approaches. US equipment was often designed such that its optics were framed against a "mechanical center," and thus were more difficult to adjust and calibrate. He regards the German development of "optic centers," allowing more flexibility in the lenses to adjust against other, as a better design method. And he described this from the perspective of working with both US & German optics equipment (he worked with a German firm in Wisconsin for a short time.)

I think that this design aspect of "mechanical center" vs. "optic center" might be a possible factor on the differing capabilities of Allied vs. German targeting optics.

[Moon]

Slappy, one of the main reasons is that the optical glass manufacturing center of the world pre-WWI (yes, World War One) was located in Germany. Only after the outbreak of WWI did the Allies start to make some serious efforts at improving that, and only years later they actually found manufacturers and quality control programs which made up for a huge knowledge gap.

A lot of this was forgotten by the Allies at the outbreak of WWII, btw.

[von Lucke]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Zeiss is the only name i've ever seen come up when optics are talked about. Granted there are people around with a hell of a lot more research background who would know better, but that's all I've ever seen. AFAIK, Zeiss made all the naval optics too.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, Zeiss still makes things like camera lenses, microscope differentials, and shooting glasses to this day...

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by von Lucke:

Yes, Zeiss still makes things like camera lenses, microscope differentials, and shooting glasses to this day...<hr></blockquote>

I wish I could afford their scopes and binoculars. They certainly make you pay for the name.

[Moon]

Many of the companies listed above still are in the optics business, nowadays manufacturing cameras or binoculars and the like. On the allied site one of the most noteworthy might be Bausch&Lomb, who started off as one of two main US plants for manufacturing optical glass, and is now making contact lenses and a lot of other industrial products.

[Simon Fox]

Thanks Moon, the main point being that calling german tank optics "Zeiss optics" is probably a misnomer since the designs and sights themselves may have originated from any number of other companies.

For example one company you list OCULUS manufactured tank gunsights in WW2.

[Sir Uber General]

Im no grog but here is my take based mainly on WW2 Online, which had a lot of grogness research into its making.

American sights also use mil-dashes, which you can use determine the range to a target of known size - you cannot however adjust the range of your weapon, you just have to aim higher. You also usually have less zoom which makes target ID over range a lot harder, especially if the nasty kraut is sitting still.

Go on, tell me how wrong I am, I know you grogs are dying to

[aka_tom_w]

thanks for all the thoughful replies

-tom w