Recoilless rifles

[Glyph]

I have a couple of questions about the recoilless rifles:

What are they? Rocketlaunchers?

To wich type of units were they assigned?

How many were produced? Were they common on the battlefields of France and Germany?

Why were they produced? Lack of resources? Because of their good mobility compared to bigger, same caliber, guns?

What are your experiences using them in CM? Offencively? Defencively?

Glyph - out.

[von Lucke]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Glyph:

I have a couple of questions about the recoilless rifles:<hr></blockquote>

And I have a few answers --- though I'm sure somebody else with a more thorough knowledge of the subject will be along shortly.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>What are they? Rocketlaunchers?<hr></blockquote>

They are as the name implies: A rifled gun made recoilless. (Duh!) Ok, so they did it by cutting holes in the breachblock (simplification!) so some of the propellent gasses would be vented, thus cutting down on recoil, but also cutting down on range. I believe this was compensated for by using a special high-density fast-burning propellant to move the projectile. And yes, it was a solid projectile (don't confuse the issue by saying that HEAT rounds aren't solid!) --- not a rocket.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>To wich type of units were they assigned?<hr></blockquote>

German FJ and mountain troops, mostly early war. Late war, the Yanks started issueing them as an sort of upgraded bazooka to some units.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>How many were produced? Were they common on the battlefields of France and Germany?<hr></blockquote>

Ask Jason about the exact numbers, but not that many, and not that common.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Why were they produced? Lack of resources? Because of their good mobility compared to bigger, same caliber, guns?<hr></blockquote>

Actually, the Germans stopped producing them because of lack of resources (the propellant charge was too expensive). As for the why, you have it right --- light, easily transportable, bang for the buck.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>What are your experiences using them in CM? Offencively? Defencively?<hr></blockquote>

Haven't really used 'em enough to say, but usually on the D, and I'd rate 'em about the same as any other exotic (puppchen, panzerwerfer 600) in the game: Cheap, useful, dead after about 2 shots, and wholly overused...

[JasonC]

"What are they? Rocketlaunchers?"

No not really. They are a distinct weapon type, combining the no-breech, no recoil idea of rocket weapons like the bazooka, with the conventional rifled barrels and shells fired by propellant exploded entirely in the chamber of conventional artillery pieces. A gun with the breech-block at the back removed, allowing the recoil gases to escape in a large backblast, and thereby eliminating most of the recoil to the gun itself. This allowed much lighter guns and mounts. It also required far more propellant to get only a fraction of the maximum range of conventional artillery.

The Germans developed them early in the war as air-mobile artillery, typically glider landed (the smaller ones could be parachuted in parts, then reassembled on the ground), for their Fallschirmjaeger units. The Americans fielded their own versions late in the war, and continued to use the principle in Korea and the early cold war period. US allies continued to use them through the Vietnam era. Wire-guided ATGMs, like the TOW, Dragon, and today the Javelin, made them obsolete. The Germans used 75mm and 105mm versions. During WW II the US used 57mm and 75mm versions. After the war they also developed 105mm versions (designated 106mm to distinguish the ammo for supply purposes).

The German weapons, being a much earlier generation of the principle, were far heavier than the late war US counterparts. The German 75mm RR weighed 320 lbs, or about the weight of a 120mm mortar. The German 105mm RR weighed 850 lbs. So both are real artillery pieces, not infantry heavy weapons. But they were distinctly lighter than typical infantry guns, which could weigh 1-2 tons. The downside was that they used several times the propellant per round.

Artillery ammo is always the limit on rounds fired, not tubes available, because each tube can throw so many rounds over its useful life. And since Germany had a nitrate shortage, more propellant per round meant each of these used up the resources for several times as many conventional artillery shells. This limited their use to roles in which the greater mobility from the light weight was essential. Which were cases where ground vehicles were not available - airborne and mountain troops.

Actually, mountain troops were supposed to have special "pack" howitzers, mountain guns meant to be carried by mules after being taken apart, then reassembled on position. And the Germans had enough 75mm mountain guns to fufill this role. But they didn't have enough 105mm mountain guns, and thus recoilless rifles were sometimes used in their place. About 5% of the light 75mm the Germans issued were 75mm RRs, the rest infantry guns (most) or mountain guns. The 105 RR were only about 2.5% of the 105mm types issued, most of which were conventional 105mm howitzers.

Ammo was another limit. Each 75mm RR had less than 8% of the rounds per gun as standard 75s. The 105mm RRs were better off with about 30% of the rounds of conventional artillery pieces. The 105s were generally used indirect, in batteries of 3-4 pieces. The 75s performed the same kind of support as 75mm infantry guns, meaning often direct fire. And since they didn't have lots of ammo to burn, probably saw little use in indirect fire.

For comparison, the US late war 57mm RRs were only 1/7th the weight of the German 75mm RR - 45 lbs , meaning essentially the same weight as a medium machinegun or 60mm mortar. Even the US 75mm was only 115 lbs, about the weight of an HMG and lighter than an 81mm mortar. However, the rounds for the 75mm were heavy enough that it could only fire a few times if packed around as an infantry support weapon. In practice it was usually a positional weapon, while the 57mm could be carried about as a platoon or company heavy weapon.

The post war US 106mm RR was typically jeep-mounted, or dismounted as a positional gun. CM does not depict the US RRs for some reason - just like the Germans get flakwagens but the US doesn't get AA halftracks, despite having gobs more of them. While never as common as bazookas, the US RRs were more common in 1945 than the German RRs ever were.

The German 75mm RRs were used in the fighting on Crete. Later on, they would be found almost exclusively in FJ regiments, in place of infantry guns. But even in that role they were rare - there were none in Normandy, for instance, despite an entire FJ corps fighting there. The 105mm RRs lasted longer and had more ammo made for them, and a handful were with the FJ in Normandy. But they were generally used indirect, and so would just show up as ordinary 105mm FOs. On the map, both should be extremely rare, and only ever found with FJ or GB forces.

The actual numbers produced for the German RRs were 650 of the 75mm version, and 525 of the 105mm. There were around 200 rounds per gun of ammo for the 75s for the whole war (a figure akin to PAK rather than artillery pieces), while the 105s were more amply supplied with 850 rounds per gun (about like a mortar, but much less than standard tube arty).

In CM, they fire effective HEAT rounds at full-map ranges. This makes them useful light AT pieces, and they are cheap for their anti-armor effectiveness. Compared to standard PAK, they are easily spotted due to backblast, and less accurate at longer ranges due to relatively low muzzle velocity. But the CM prices more than make up for this. They combine the anti-infantry effect of infantry guns with greater AT ability than 50mm PAK. Offensively they are mostly worthless, like most towed guns.

The reason not to take gobs of them in QBs, just like the reason not to take gobs of puppchens, is they weren't really available, are underpriced, etc. Gamey. For a scenario designer, a few in FJ or GB scenarios occasionally might be a fun change of pace. As for the US not getting theirs, that is just "we didn't have time for anything non-German," on the part of BTS. The US RRs would be more common in the late war and more effective, since e.g. the 57mm would be a medium speed infantry team instead of a limited speed towed gun. But then quad 50 cal halftracks aren't there either, so what else is new?

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]</p>

[Glyph]

Thanks for the info von Lucke and JasonC! Great answers! I have a new question: Is Jason some sort of living encyclopedia of WWII lore?

[Shipmonkey25]

The US paratroopers do get RRs in the game, their is a scenerio on the disk where you get two US 57mms and I think their are 75mm available in the scenerio editor.

[Dogface]

correct shipmonkey cm does have tem for us troops

late war only IIRC. they do a number on tanks if you can hide them well enough..

[PJungnitsch]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>As for the US not getting theirs, that is just "we didn't have time for anything non-German," on the part of BTS. The US RRs would be more common in the late war and more effective, since e.g. the 57mm would be a medium speed infantry team instead of a limited speed towed gun. But then quad 50 cal halftracks aren't there either, so what else is new?<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't bitch too hard, the US did get the Super Pershing in the game, of which all of two were produced. And the Panther and King Tiger turrets are still way too slow. No doubt Brian has a list on the Commonwealth side of things. Everyone can find something to complain about. AFAIK American use of recoiless rifles in WWII was very limited, Hogg only gives use by 17th Airborne near Essen, which must have been at the very end.

The only recoiless rifle that really mattered in the war would be the humble Panzerfaust, anyway.

[JasonC]

You are right, the US 57mm is in. As a slow 4 man infantry team, with 24 rounds. I think it ought to have medium speed, and the 75mm does not seem to be available. But it is nice that they do have it. I stand corrected.

As for whether I'm an encyclopedia, no I am just a webcrawler and avid "brief" writer. Anybody can find the same stuff if they just poke around. A library helps too, to be sure...

[MikeyD]

I thought the U.S. 57mm RR showed up in early 45 along with a batch of other 'test items' to see how they'd do in combat. Design projects that didn't bear fruit til it was almost too late in the war to be used.

Of course a U.S. 'test object' could entail a greater production run than some German standard-issue weapons! The Pershing is an example of that.

[Slapdragon]

1800 M18 Recoiless rifles where recieved by the end of the war and were in the process of replacing 57mm AT guns not only in Airborne, but in leg units. It was a fairly common piece in the last two months of the war.

A dozen M20 rifles made it to Europe in time to participate in fighting. They were strictly used for tests.

The 57mm HEAT was ok, but the M18 really was used more for its HE and APERS cannister round.