Problem With Infantry Panicking Too Early

[Col Deadmarsh]

I had a "Regular" zook team crawling from one patch of woods to another when a couple of enemy infantry squads open fired on them from 500m out. The infantry state went from OK to Panic to Broken in less than 2 seconds. This is pure Bullsh*t! These are trained soldiers, not green reserves. In real life, a team like that would not panic that soon going from one patch of woods to another which by the way are about 2 feet apart. What really bothers me is that they only needed to crawl another 2 seconds to the next patch of woods for cover but instead they get up and panic and run away. Now the team is utterly useless because they've "broken."

Can't something be done about the code here? If the infantry team's destination is close and yet they're receiving fire, why can't they just continue? I can see if they had to go a ways further to get to safety but not if it's only gonna take them another sec or two. This is very annoying to watch teams like this do completely stupid things. A change in the code is needed.

[Pak40]

Sounds quite realistic to me. Think of it as a dice roll of 12 (in Squad Leader terms) and your squads morale failed. Anything's possible in war.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Yup, sounds like a problem for you.

Not for me though.

[Clinton]

Think about it. 2 lone men crawling along, when all of a sudden 12 or so guys open up on you. I I don't care if you are Rambo, 2 guys are gonna be freaking out real quick. And remember these guys fighting arn't all "Highly trained, professional, balls of iron" kinda people. Most of them are just young adults who were sped through training and thrust into a war. I think that the Green and Regular status reflects this a bit.

[Col Deadmarsh]

I can accept this if they were green or conscripts, but not regs. They shouldn't panic that quickly. What bothers me more is that they had cover in front of them less of a distance from the cover behind them and yet they chose to run back.

Remember, these men shooting at me are 400-500 meters away. I think a panic like this from regular army men is premature and the code needs to be tweeked.

Lately, I've been asking myself why even bother buying Regulars anymore. They panic way too much and it just seems like buying Vets on the medium setting is the only way to keep your line intact.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I agree with the others here that this randomness in unit behavior is realistic and good. I think it's one of the best things about CM and hope it never changes.

[ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[lcm1947]

I agree with you Colonel Deadmarsh. I would think two soldiers that were being fired on 1. wouldn't panic, scared yeah but not complete panic and 2. they would probably head for the nearest protection. That only makes sense to me. Now if they were green maybe panic but he said they were regular so that means to me soldiers that have been in the fighting for sometime anyway and are used to the firing and noise. And personally even troops that panic would I hope head for closest cover. Now if it's something in the game that does this on purpose then hey that's cool but is it? Anybody know for sure or could it be a problem? It's happened to me too but not that often so I just curse alot and go about the game but yeah it makes you upset.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Remember, these men shooting at me are 400-500 meters away. I think a panic like this from regular army men is premature and the code needs to be tweeked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. What I want to know is why they waited two whole seconds before breaking.

[Clinton]

Panic=Not thinking clearly. They lose the ability to process coherently. Therefore they break and run for home.

Regular troops to me means that they have been in country for a little while but have yet to see any serious fighting.

Green is fresh in country.

Vets have been in country and seen some good combat time.

So Regulars should panic in a situation like that. If someone began shooting at you from in front of you, and you panic, I don't think that you will run toward the fire even though cover is closer there, I think one would flee very fast. Just my thoughts.

[ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Clinton ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Small arms fire from 400-500 meters away can be accurate and deadly at times. Not as often and as reliably as at 100m (of course), but it can and does happen both in RL and the game.

Also, be carefull about forming opinions based upon observation of a single event. Almost anything can happen once, that doesn't mean it's the norm.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Lately, I've been asking myself why even bother buying Regulars anymore. They panic way too much and it just seems like buying Vets on the medium setting is the only way to keep your line intact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well bazooka teams are definitely somewhere

where paying extra for vets is worth it.

For infantry, I generally like to get about

1/3 vets. Often I get a regular company

and then one vet platoon (and some vet

support) The idea is to _lead with the

vets_. Use them to scout, or put them

into a position where they are a thorn

in the side of the enemy's movements.

Basically, give them the hard jobs.

Since zooks often have to sneak into

unscouted positions, they have a hard

job, hence, buy vet zooks.

Regular inf is fine once you know what the

playing field looks like. Then you can

proceed methodically, which suits them.

--Rett

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CMplayer

Since zooks often have to sneak into unscouted positions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh look, someone else who thinks AT teams were suicide squads.

Deadmarsh, you saw something bad happen once and you're demanding a code change. I'm sure every real-world military commander has seen plenty of ridiculous behaviour in their troops which defies explanation, but on the battlefield when your life is at risk, and you've got to make critical decisions in split seconds, sometimes people get things wrong, or indeed, can't cope and start to panic. CM models this.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Oh look, someone else who thinks AT teams were suicide squads.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh look, someone else who thinks he knows

what other people think.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken (Official BTS Butt Kisser)

Deadmarsh, you saw something bad happen once and you're demanding a code change. I'm sure every real-world military commander has seen plenty of ridiculous behaviour in their troops which defies explanation, but on the battlefield when your life is at risk, and you've got to make critical decisions in split seconds, sometimes people get things wrong, or indeed, can't cope and start to panic. CM models this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not demanding anything. I'm just pissed off and throwing out my opinion. Sorry if I don't phrase it the way you prefer, Dave.

Like I said, I can understand greens and conscripts doing this but these regs do have training, even though they may not have seen much combat time.

The enemy infantry firing at them shot through a crease between a house and some woods so they weren't out in the open for very long. My zook team was crawling away from the enemy too so it's not like they were panicking because they were heading in their direction. Now, if the infantry would've just panicked, I would've simply cussed them out. But having them "broken" after 2 seconds from infantry firing at ranges up to 400-500m is just too much.

I sincerely hope this is a once in a blue moon thing as I never usually buy regulars much because I believed them to be panicking way too early in other battles, but this takes the cake.

[ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

The enemy infantry firing at them shot through a crease between a house and some woods so they weren't out in the open for very long. My zook team was crawling away from the enemy too so it's not like they were panicking because they were heading in their direction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err, they probably will not have known where the fire came from. 2 secs is a bit too short to figure out something along the lines of:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>'Oh, we are under heavy fire, but it is coming from this place over there, so if I just go over here, nothing will happen. Of course there is noone else around to back me up or suppress the fire, and maybe (but hopefully not) it is not coming from in front of me, sicne I am sure we have not been flanked. I think I just crawl on, because otherwise I am not worthy of being a regular.'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, really difficult, but somehow I think I am with Babra on this one.

CM-Player - David knows what you are thinking because you told him so.

[Mark IV]

Q: Was the zook team in command radius?

Two squads shooting at you would theoretically be 16 guys or so, of whom at least two have the most feared MG in the world, and most of the rest only high-powered rifles.

I wonder what 16 supersonic near misses whipping by sounds like. Maybe no big deal, but maybe your guy didn't have a lot of warrior chromosomes in his geneology. As someone said, it's a dice roll, just like RL draftees.

The real travesty is that maybe only one of the guys in the two man team panicked, but thanks to abstractions they both booked. I think a tweak is in order, to split the team and have the brave guy with the bag of rockets hold his ground.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

CM-Player - David knows what you are thinking because you told him so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. He read a great deal into what I

said, and incorrectly.

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mark IV wrote:

I think a tweak is in order, to split the team and have the brave guy with the bag of rockets hold his ground.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But of course, will the brave guy in a two-man team continue to be brave on his own? Panic is contagious...

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

But of course, will the brave guy in a two-man team continue to be brave on his own? Panic is contagious...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And when pani sets in with a bag of rockets, we all know it ain't gonna' be pretty...

[Stacheldraht]

It might help to focus on both (ultimately related) issues individually: panicking and running backward instead of toward closer cover that may or may not be more dangerous. I've seen the latter happen many times, including in a game I just played. That was even when the units in question could see friendlies had made it to the same copse of trees ahead of them and "knew" it was at least relatively safe. Running away from incoming fire is one of the surest ways for infantry to meet their maker (Steve?) in CM. Better to move a couple feet forward to a treeline and hit the dirt than bolt screaming across an open field.

[ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Stacheldraht wrote:

Better to move a couple feet forward to a treeline and hit the dirt than bolt screaming across an open field.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That makes good sense, but the question is, when someone panics under fire, do they think rationally? The whole point of panicking in CM is that it makes the difference between taking cover and holding your ground, and just snapping and running away. Troops in good cover often panic and run away, because their instinct is to get away from danger. Instinct does not tell you the most sensible course of action when taken under fire by X number of troops bearing Y type of weapons from Z range. It tells you "danger, run away!".

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

That makes good sense, but the question is, when someone panics under fire, do they think rationally? The whole point of panicking in CM is that it makes the difference between taking cover and holding your ground, and just snapping and running away. Troops in good cover often panic and run away, because their instinct is to get away from danger. Instinct does not tell you the most sensible course of action when taken under fire by X number of troops bearing Y type of weapons from Z range. It tells you "danger, run away!".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case it's amazing how a whole squad

of 12 guys panics, and runs screaming all

together in the same incoherent direction.

--Rett

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

In that case it's amazing how a whole squad

of 12 guys panics, and runs screaming all

together in the same incoherent direction.

--Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is dealt with rather well through the '!' once they have recovered. To me that means that they are just no longer cohesive, and the high losses once they panick and run to me mean that some guys just scuttle off in the 'wrong' direction. The red cross mark does include panicked soldiers, it is not just dead or wounded. And once they have panicked and are gone, why would you want to have them clutter the battlefield?

[Stacheldraht]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That makes good sense, but the question is, when someone panics under fire, do they think rationally? The whole point of panicking in CM is that it makes the difference between taking cover and holding your ground, and just snapping and running away. Troops in good cover often panic and run away, because their instinct is to get away from danger. Instinct does not tell you the most sensible course of action when taken under fire by X number of troops bearing Y type of weapons from Z range. It tells you "danger, run away!". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely, but in certain situations, such as the ones I mentioned, one would think that even a panicked person would instinctively run a few more meters forward to apparent cover and nearby friendlies than turn tail in open terrain. By definition, a panicked squad isn't going to be thinking clearly, or perhaps more precisely, not going to be following their training unerringly or unthinkingly, but nonetheless....

[ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[Stacheldraht]

It would be helpful if someone could produce some of the psychological studies the military has done on these sorts of issues. What we estimate to be the case probably means very little in light of a (presumed) lack of direct experience in the matter here.