Jagpanther: How often do you purchase?

[grunto2]

hi,

in a continuation of the thread about the appearance of tigers and the realism of it as compared to that of panzer iv and panthers, what about the jagdpanther?

was it used in conjunction with jgpzIV and StuGs or were there separate heavy tank destroyer battalions, with only jagdpanthers?

i would think that the stugs would be separate from the tank destroyers in any case.

what about marder and nashorn? were they in separate units or mixed with other, closed-top TD types?

what does asl say?

it says about stugs: 8,600 StuG IIIG built, another 1,000 StuG IV (no different in asl game terms). it says that stugs were used in TD battallions.

between marder II and the marder III types, about 2500 were built before production was switched to the hetzer.

494 Nashorns were built.

769 of the jgpz iv were built; 'a 1944 td battalion often contained a mixture of StuG III and JgdPz IV...'

1200 jpgz iv/70 were built.

finally, only 390 jagdpanther built.

so they would probably be pretty rare in cmbo game terms:

'JgdPz V: With its gun, armor, and speed, the Jagdpanther was one of the most potent TD of the war. Its greatest drawback was its rarity; only about 390 were built. Use of the Jagdpanther in Normandy was limited to the 12-14 vehicles of 2nd Company, schwere Panzerjaegerabteilung (TD battalion) 654.'

does anyone know of any other historical encounters against the jagdpanther?

it does look like they were mixed with other TDs, at least in their limited use at Normandy.

Andy

[Warmaker]

I rarely buy Jagdpanthers due to their cost. I can almost buy 2 JagdpanzerIVs for the cost which I usually send as flank support for my Tiger I/IIs. However, in a big points game like 2000pts, you really can't go wrong with the Jagdpanther whose gun can also be effective support against soft targets. The main reason I don't go with Jagdpanthers in my game is because I have extremely bad luck with them. Well sloped and more armor than the Jagdpanzers but I still lose mine (except for one occasion) in less than 3 turns. Again, the cost for only a Tank Destroyer is too high. If I'm willing to pay huge bucks for a TD, then in a blue moon I'll just pick a Jagdtiger just to p!$$ of the other guy:"Hey! You can't take a Jagdtiger!"...whatever,man.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Olle Petersson]

Regarding your historical questions & comments:

- JPs were indeed deployed with independant heavy Panzerjäger batallions.

- StuG IIIG was the most versatile AFV in the German inventory. Originally designed for infantry support only, but with the 75L48 gun it was used in tank destroyer batallions and regular tank batallions as well...

- Marders were regular TDs, used in the divisional anti tank batallion.

- Nashorns were predecessors to JPs, and used in the heavy (independant) formations.

(I think I have a list of the heavy panzerjäger batallions and their equipment somewhere, see if I can find it...)

As for my use of Jagdpanthers in CM:

I've used some a few times. Tactically I'd rate them as Tigers, E or B versions alike.

Cheers

Olle

[Jarmo]

I rarely buy them for several reasons.

- Jagdpanthers weren't all that common.

- Since there were orders prohibiting their use in single units, you really should buy a platoon if you are going to buy them.

- Every time I get one, it dies real soon. Dunno why, feels like they are made of cardboard.

[mensch]

true they were rare.. but there were alot of things that were rare.. IE.. PUMAs.. but everyone (or appears to) buy them like they are on 5 for 1 sales at Gallierie Kaufhof!.... or 120mm Mortars.. used not often but at 105pts for 60 shots of nasty fireworks.. I take them most of the time.

go figure... best bet is use historical maps made by people who want and are willing to make things as real as possible for you.. that way you won't end up against a opponent who just bought 4 Jagdpanthers with 6 Pumas for scouting and 2 120mm Mortar FOs to make sure your AT assets are dust. =)

-----------

www.derkessel.com Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

"...one who once was and still is but does not as often but does it better although somewhat sloppily."

-Hiram Sedai/Phillies Phan

[von Lucke]

Never. (And I've only ever faced them in one QB out of the many I've played).

Really, they're too expensive, have a limited traverse, and the 88L71 is overkill against 95% of the Allied tanks yr going to face.

[Guest ckoharik]

Usually the only time I'll get the Jagdpanther is when I know it will be a armor heavy/heavy armor battle at long ranges. The velocity of it's 88 definitely helps in that type of engagment.

On a side note, I remember playing a QB not too long ago against the AI where it purchased two Jagdpanthers. What a pain in the butt they turned out to be. Bounced many, many rounds from all calibers off of them, and not just from the front. They ended up chewing my forces up.

NOTE: Dyslexia for cure found!

[This message has been edited by ckoharik (edited 03-22-2001).]

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

- Every time I get one, it dies real soon. Dunno why, feels like they are made of cardboard.

Same here. 0.85-multiplier for armor quality really kicks in.

Ari

[-Havermeyer-]

NEVER (again).

In every armor test I run, the JagdPanther dies first.

In fact, give me a whole punch of MkIVs...

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

(with-rant

Everyone spending 198 points into the Jagdpanther on a regular basis, please tell me what you smoked, where you got it and how much it costs.

The thing has even thinner (front!) armor than the regular panther. Granted, it is at a much better angle, but that doesn't count against side shots (which it cannot react on anyway) and not when the opponent is on high ground or firing slow projectiles.

The regular panther is certainly not undergunned in the typical CM situation.

The regular panther has two MGs with > 200 ammunition, while the JPz V has only one with 24 ammunition (self-defense only). The main gun ammunition supply on the Panther is better as well. The Jagdpanzer IV comes with the same amount of ammunition than the Panzer IV.

The Jagdpanzer IV is much smaller than the regular IV, but the Jagdpanther has even more silhouette than the Panther. These things are snipers, they must remain unseen.

The Jagd version of the IV is also clearly better armored, the JPz V only avoids the turret, the hull is equal to the Pz V, even angle-wise.

The non-/70 JPz IV is also a little faster than the regular tank, where the Jagdpanther is even a little slower than the Panther.

In my opinion, the JPz V is a step back. The Jagdpanzer IV was a worthy successor for the Sturmgeschütz, overall a fine construction if a little undergunned, the /70 version seemed to have balance problems.

The Jagdpanther is the fastest 88 you can buy, granted. But only when you know that your situation will involve very heavy enemy armor and wide open terrain you have a remote chance to make use of the Jagdpanther. On the eastern front against KV and IS tanks, OK, but in France? What are you going to do, sink the landing ships with it?

)

[just in case, I am not that serious]

[This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 03-22-2001).]

[Guest ckoharik]

Well, I for one try not to think of the JP as a static, stand-up pillbox. Use it in a good ambush spot where it's flanks are protected. If you miss or are being overwhelmed, get the heck out of there. Displace and relocate for another try. That 88 will make mince meat out of pretty much anything.

[Olle Petersson]

For historical composition, check out my new thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/017635.html

Cheers

Olle