edgars Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Interesting article about aerosled developement and their combat employment by Soviet Army. http://history.vif2.ru/library/bookshelf/aerosani/aerosan.html Couple of quotes: <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> "Upon our request, V. D. Sokolovskiy sent in an aerosled company. It was deployed with the army logistic headquarters. In the second half of February, a German ski detachment, as many as 200 or more soldiers, sneaked into our rear at night and cut the road that supplied the right wing of the Army with all its necessities. The aerosled company was employed for attacks against this German assault force and executed this mission brilliantly."<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> On the night of 26-27 March 1943, a reconnaissance group of this ski battalion was conducting reconnaissance of the enemy that occupied the west shore of Lake Onega, north of Kulikov lighthouse. The enemy detected the ski reconnaissance group and counterattacked with superior forces, causing Soviet unit to flee. The Germans began a pursuit. At dawn on 27 March, the commander of 4'th BASB received a combat mission: "With a company of combat aerosleds, attack the enemy that is pursuing our reconnaissance group." At 7:50, 3'rd Company of 4'th BASB departed from an assembly area near Lake Kobylie. Traveling some 16 km along the assigned azimuth, the company suddenly and vigorously attacked the enemy who was pursuing our reconnaissance group. Unable to withstand the flank attack of the aerosled company, the enemy was forced not only to halt his pursuit but also to withdraw to his own start position, suffering significant losses in the process. <hr></blockquote> Question is, will we see aerosleds in CM:BB? Author talks about "Combat aerosled battalions (BASB)", so it seems it was pretty common vehicle, certainly more common than, let's say, SturmTiger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Well you learn something new every day. I would guess we would not be seeing this in CM2, just a guess... H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Originally posted by Holien: Well you learn something new every day. I would guess we would not be seeing this in CM2, just a guess... Talk about gamey recon ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedOrDead Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Would have great sound effects though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 ciks wrote, quoting an article: The enemy detected the ski reconnaissance group and counterattacked with superior forces, causing Soviet unit to flee. The Germans began a pursuit. That action was actually against Finns, not Germans. And the significance of their casualties is highly debatable [unfortunately the online Finnish KIA database isn't particularly online just now so I can't check]. I've read few Finnish accounts of it, but right now I can't remember any details since it was too long time ago. Note that the aerosled unit was later put out of comission by a Finnish bombing raid on their staging areas while they were preparing for a large-scale (200 aerosled) raid. The main reason why they were practically useless in normal combat (as opposed to surprise raids) is mentioned down near the bottom of the article: Vulnerability to machine-gun, and mortar, and artillery fire, which limited the possibility of combat aerosleds to conduct independent offensive actions. Recently I read the memoirs of one Finnish FO that had the opportunity to examine a captured aerosled. He noticed that it had armor only towards front and the sides were thin wood. Moreover, the frontal armor was so thin that he thought that even a rifle AP round could penetrate it. - Tommi [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: tss ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer_Meyer Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Damn those things are awesome, I hope we get these for CM:BB. How fast did these things go? I would imagine fairly fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Well, tss mentions that some 200 of the things were destroyed in just one bombing raid. That already beats the production numbers for such beasts as the SturmTiger. Mix these glorified go carts with ski troops, and it could make for a really cool recon/flanking force in a winter scenario! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by The Commissar: Well, tss mentions that some 200 of the things were destroyed in just one bombing raid. That already beats the production numbers for such beasts as the SturmTiger. Mix these glorified go carts with ski troops, and it could make for a really cool recon/flanking force in a winter scenario!<hr></blockquote> no it realy would'nt since the russian tactics if you want to call them that were so brutal, all they basicly did was tell mass amounts of people to run forward and die but make sure you kill a gemran before doing so, i don't see any units themselves as "gamey" if you see anything as gamey it should be how people deploy and use them, for instance have 1941 russians troops use advanced german tactics and blitzkreig there way thru the german front lines, hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ciks: Question is, will we see aerosleds in CM:BB?<hr></blockquote> I have this faint recollection of a couple decades back someone designed some counters for these units for use in Panzerblitz and published them in The General. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgars Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: no it realy would'nt since the russian tactics if you want to call them that were so brutal, all they basicly did was tell mass amounts of people to run forward and die but make sure you kill a gemran before doing so, i don't see any units themselves as "gamey" if you see anything as gamey it should be how people deploy and use them, for instance have 1941 russians troops use advanced german tactics and blitzkreig there way thru the german front lines, hehe<hr></blockquote> You're joking right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgars Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tss: The main reason why they were practically useless in normal combat (as opposed to surprise raids) is mentioned down near the bottom of the article: Vulnerability to machine-gun, and mortar, and artillery fire, which limited the possibility of combat aerosleds to conduct independent offensive actions. Recently I read the memoirs of one Finnish FO that had the opportunity to examine a captured aerosled. He noticed that it had armor only towards front and the sides were thin wood. Moreover, the frontal armor was so thin that he thought that even a rifle AP round could penetrate it. - Tommi [/QB]<hr></blockquote> I agree that the frontline combat value is questionable against PREPARED enemy defenses. However the real value i think is that aerosleds are basically winter jeeps with machine guns and "they towed and transported machine-guns, mortars, and 45mm antitank guns to firing positions." Germans as far as i know didn't have such stuff, and if aerosleds are left out, you are taking an effective winter transport out from soviet arsenal. You may argue that sleds may be left out because they're out of scope as they are not realy a frontline combat unit, but remeber that BTS included partisans in the CMBB, and partisans aren't really a frontline combat unit either. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Damn those things are awesome, I hope we get these for CM:BB. How fast did these things go? I would imagine fairly fast. <hr></blockquote> "Experience proved that for transport aerosleds one basic load of fuel was sufficient for 160 km at an average movement speed of 25-35 km/h. " (that is with cargo load up to 500kg) [ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: ciks ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Oh dear, my netscape crashed and took my detailed reply with it. The Commissar wrote: Well, tss mentions that some 200 of the things were destroyed in just one bombing raid. Actually, it is more probable that perhaps a dozen or two were completely wrecked and several dozens damaged. However, this damage was enough to stop the planned attack (that had been revealed by radio interception, if I remember correctly) and rebuilding the unit took longer than what was left of the winter. I tried to dig out an Finnish account of the above-mentioned operation but failed. The only accounts that I found were about an attack to small Lindema garrison two months earlier. Also, Dmitri Gusarov's "Partizanskaja Muzika" (supposing I remember the declination of the Russian title correctly) tells only of that same Lindema raid, even though he was most probably present also in the March one, in the ski unit. (He mentions in one single sentence "failed missions in February and March"). Gusarov is the Soviet author about Partisan warfare around Lake Onega - Rukajärvi area. Unfortunately only two of his books have been translated in Finnish and none in English. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 It is unlikely that these sleds will make it into CMBB. There are several reasons, but the two really difficult ones to overcome are: 1. They required a decent amount of snow cover to work at all. However, CM is not coded to filter the unit purchase list according to weather conditions. That means the AI might buy you some with no snow at all. And boy, wouldn't that just piss a person off 2. They were HIGHLY restricted to favorable terrain. The reasons have to do with the limitations such vehicles had in the real world. The article discusses these limitations a bit, but CM is incapable of simulating them. No other vehicle in CM is limited by the kinds of conditions. Then of course there are these question posed by ciks: <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Germans as far as i know didn't have such stuff, and if aerosleds are left out, you are taking an effective winter transport out from soviet arsenal.<hr></blockquote> We have left out almost ALL forms of non-combat transport. This includes fully tracked vehicles which were more functional, over all, than the SU sleds. So it is more correct to leave it out than to include it as literally dozens of other modes of transportation are not simulated. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>You may argue that sleds may be left out because they're out of scope as they are not realy a frontline combat unit, but remeber that BTS included partisans in the CMBB, and partisans aren't really a frontline combat unit either.<hr></blockquote> Depends on how you define frontline Frontline to me is any place where two organized military formations engage in direct combat in sizes greater than company scale with the intention of eliminating the enemy or securing a piece of territory. The relation of such a battle to an established and recognized "frontline" on a strategic battle map is totally irrelevant. Partisan actions fitting this description were very limited on the Western Front, but extremely common on the Eastern Front. The only difference between such a battle and one fought by regular Red Army forces is the availablity of weapons and organization. Generally Partisan forces were limited to small arms, but it was not uncommon for them to have light mortars and even artillery towards the 1944. "Raiding" type combat is something we do not simulate in CM. Raiding can be done on a large or small scale, but the nature of the battle is similar. One attempts to cause disruption and material damage quickly and then withdraw. Holding territory is generally not a goal, and often elimination of the enemy is not either. But most importantly, if organized resistance is found, the raid usually fails regardless of scale. This is something the article makes specific mention of, BTW. The numbers produced are not very relevant either as hundreds of thousands of dozens of different model 4 wheeled, 6 wheeled, full tracked, and half tracked vehicles were used on this front. Yet we aren't including them either. So comparisions between production numbers of a heavy armored combat vehicle, such as a Jagdtiger, and something designed for raids/transports are irrelevant. Heck, there were probably more dog mines "produced" than Jagdtigers Bottom line is that even if we could correctly simulate the real world limitations of this unique vehicle, we might still not opt to include it because it doesn't fit into CM's scope very well. Sorry folks, but that be reality Steve [ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: Bottom line is that even if we could correctly simulate the real world limitations of this unique vehicle, we might still not opt to include it because it doesn't fit into CM's scope very well. One more potential nail to the coffin: they mostly operated on frozen lakes. Will there be a realistic ice breaking routine that would plunge units, including the aerosleds, into the freezing water when the ice gets broken by falling artillery rounds and what not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 CMBB will have variable ice thicknesses, but no dynamic ice damage. Actuall, now that Charles has reminded me , the big killer of this vehicle is that the Tac and Strat AIs would have to be specifically coded to be able to use them. No other vehicle or unit in CM has the kinds of operational/tactical restrictions that these sleds have. Since spending days, if not a week, coding up stuff for this would be a horrible use of Charles' time, it is a dead option right there. All other problems are minor (yet still totally valid) compared to AI programming time. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgars Posted November 8, 2001 Author Share Posted November 8, 2001 Thanks for your response, Steve. The least thing we wanna do is to waste Charles' time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: CMBB will have variable ice thicknesses, but no dynamic ice damage. But it does get damaged and breaks while the game is in progress ? [ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: tero ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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