Col Deadmarsh Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 I feel kinda stupid asking a newbie question like this but it isn't covered in depth in the manual when maybe it should be. So, would someone care to describe exactly what they are and their strengths and weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 A bunker is at lest in CM a wooden structure with a MG. A Pillbox in CM is a cement structure which ether has an MG, 75mm gun , or a 88mm gun. The bunk has the disavantige of being made off wood so it is easily knocked out. The Pillbox can only be defeated if the firing slit or the rear door is penetrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 A pillbox is a concrete fortification, and can have either an AT gun (75mm or 88mm) or 3 MGs. A bunker can be a dug out reinforced with logs, and is limited to one MG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco QNS Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Pill-box : "Small, round, concrete emplacement for a machine-gun, anti-tank gun, etc." ((derives from "Pillar-box", postal box, I think)). Bunker : "Steel and concrete fortification, usually underground" Those are the Webster´s Comprehensive Dictionary definitions. So, all Pill-boxes are bunkers, but not all bunkers (comm, living-grounds, hospitals, ...) are pill-boxes. ((Though I have called always bunkers to all of them)) I suppose so, the Pill-box would be one bunker similar in appearence to a british postal box. See for more info on all kind of fortifications: Fortress Study Group And a spanish web page on bunkers (in spanish): [ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Paco QNS ] Bunkers frente a Gibraltar [ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Paco QNS ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Chambers 21st Century Dictionary says: pillbox 1 a small round container for pills. 2 military a small, usually circular, concrete shelter for use as a lookout post and gun emplacement. 3 a small round flat-topped hat. bunker 1 an obstacle on a golf course consisting of a hollow area containing sand. 2 (also coal bunker) a large container or cupboard for storing coal. 3 a compartment for storing fuel on board ship. 4 an underground bombproof shelter. 18c in sense 2; 16c Scots as bonker, meaning 'box', 'chest', or 'seat'. So your answer is, a pillbox is where the Germans keep their tablets, and a bunker is their cunning plan to disrupt your pre-battle game of golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Well now it's clear why we were fighting them germans!!! The gamey bastards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: So your answer is, a pillbox is where the Germans keep their tablets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What is written on the tablets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr: What is written on the tablets?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Die Zehn Kommadmenten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra: Die Zehn Kommadmenten<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So a pillbox is really the Ark of the Covenant? Why didn't they just call it an Ark? Seems simpler . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Because the Brits had the Ark Royal at that time and it would have been confusing. Do you have to be told all those things?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Geez -- SORRY! It's not like I have been here for ten months (to the day) and should know all this crap or anything. Stinking moody Frenchmen . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr: Why didn't they just call it an Ark? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So as not to be confused with the AufklurungsracketenKriegsthingie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted June 23, 2001 Author Share Posted June 23, 2001 My thread has been tainted with the leakage of Peng... When you people get through with your jabbering, can you tell me how big a gun or arty shell you need to be able to penetrate each one from the front? Also, how many people in reality are usually in each of these structures? I'm assuming that there are more in a bunker since it's dug out and underground. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: My thread has been tainted with the leakage of Peng... When you people get through with your jabbering, can you tell me how big a gun or arty shell you need to be able to penetrate each one from the front? Also, how many people in reality are usually in each of these structures? I'm assuming that there are more in a bunker since it's dug out and underground. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Any tank gun can do it. They just have to hit the Firing slit or the rear door it thats all. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Okay Deadmarsh. There is no concrete definition of a 'pillbox' or a 'bunker'. There is no particular number of men you are likely to find in an average bunker, as though each nation has a mass-produced unit it calls the 'PzKpfw 290/1 Pillbox' or 'M75A Bunker', which they ship out to the front line and dig into the ground. A pillbox or a bunker is simply what you get when someone decides that their current front line is likely to be semi-permanent, so they'd better make it as impregnable as possible. They would then elaborate on the existing trenches in that position, choosing appropriate positions where they reckon guns and strongpoints should go. After choosing gun positions, they will construct pillboxes to house the guns. These pillboxes will be to no particular design, they will just be concrete fortifications bearing certain typical characteristics, such as one or more firing slits for whatever weapons are available, and access routes for the crew. Locations such as command centres and crew billets will be reinforced, usually with wood, and become bunkers. The rooves of these installations are typically level with the ground, sometimes because they are simply an extension to a trench, and always because this makes them far less obvious and vulnerable to the enemy. These bunkers will not usually be distinct objects, but will blend in with, enhance and reinforce existing fortifications, which themselves are blending in with, enhancing and reinforcing natural defensive positions. What appears to be confusing you is that BTS has modelled two very neat little fixed fortifications, one made of concrete and one made of wood, and called them a 'pillbox' and a 'bunker' respectively. They have little in common with the type of fortification you would be likely to encounter in reality, beyond having firing slits and guns inside. BTS should ideally, and hopefully soon will, allow us to create our own defensive fortifications from basic components such as trenches and sandbags, instead of providing us with unrealistic, self-contained 'fortifications' which are essentially static vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 My word David - that was positively groggy of you. Col. Deadmarsh - All kidding aside, I just found it interesting that someone who has been around as long as you hadn't thought about this before. Perhaps what is confusing to you is that you are thinking only of Seigfried Line, Maginot Line or Atlantic Wall concrete "bunkers". These were extremely elaborate fortifications that took years to build. I do not believe that is what BTS is trying to model - it is frankly beyond the scope of the game. Instead, for a description of the smaller concrete pillboxes (and wooden bunkers) CMBO appears to model, read "Company Commander" by Charles MacDonald. Generally, the concrete ones were one or two room affairs with firing slits. Wooden bunkers were essentially foxholes reinforced and covered with felled trees and the like, with a firing slit slightly above ground level. One other thing (a serious gripe I have with these "units") - the Germans weren't the only ones to use them. Many Allied positions created wooden 'bunkers' in static front line areas to house forward outposts or MG nests. Additionally, Allied troops took advantage of existing pillboxes for cover quite regularly. It has always been my opinion that CMBO does not model these very accurately because (1) only the Germans can have them; and (2) Other units (such as squads, tank crews, etc.) cannot enter the fortification to take cover (which occurred often in the War). Oh, and as to your question about penetration (down Mace), the answer is essentially you couldn't penetrate them without bombs or big navy guns (and even then, the shells might bounce). You could kill one, however, by either popping a round through the firing slit (technically not a penetration because the round never impacts the outer protection) or by blasting the immediate area with enough HE to stun the occupants (or even kill them) through the concussion effects alone. Flamethrowers, grenades, and small arms fire through the firing slits worked well, too. Just $0.02 from one of those jabbering, anti-grog Pengers. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 How odd, I tried the search thingy and it came up with this; Well, if you wanna see the sun rise Honey, I know where We'll go out and see it sometime We'll both just sit there and stare Me with my belt Wrapped around my head And you just sittin' there In your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat Copyright © 1966 Bob Dylan; renewed 1994 Dwarf Music Complete song is at Pill Box Hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 I love this board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Actually, according to "German Defensive Batteries and Gun Emplacements on the Normandy Beaches" by Schmeelke & Schmeelke (No, I'm not lying) the typical german concrete bunker of the type meant to be portrayed in CMBO was the "Standard Structure 612". There are many other standard structure types, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. None of them, however, look anything like the item portrayed in CMBO. Standard structure 202 was a simple one-man roofless bunker constructed by burying a concrete cylinder in the ground and affixing a ring mount for a machine gun to the rim. It was 3.7m deep, 2.2m wide and was extremely successful as it was nearly impossible to spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra: Standard structure 202 was a simple one-man roofless bunker constructed by burying a concrete cylinder in the ground and affixing a ring mount for a machine gun to the rim. It was 3.7m deep, 2.2m wide and was extremely successful as it was nearly impossible to spot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uhh.. I have hard time visualizing this one.. wouldn't it be really hard to shoot if you're standing in a 3.7m deep hole? Seriously, what's the deal? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: Uhh.. I have hard time visualizing this one.. wouldn't it be really hard to shoot if you're standing in a 3.7m deep hole? Seriously, what's the deal? :confused:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Presumably there is a firing step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>wouldn't it be really hard to shoot if you're standing in a 3.7m deep hole?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Ach!" "Ahem... American Shwein? A little help please?" "Mommy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 A pill box holds pills, and a bunker holds fuel.....what's so difficult?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted June 24, 2001 Author Share Posted June 24, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr: Col. Deadmarsh - All kidding aside, I just found it interesting that someone who has been around as long as you hadn't thought about this before. Perhaps what is confusing to you is that you are thinking only of Seigfried Line, Maginot Line or Atlantic Wall concrete "bunkers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Um...I have no freaking idea of what you're talking about. I may have been around awhile but I am still naive about WWII terrain, units, soldiers, you name it. I need to read up on the subject if I can just make the time to do so. So much else on my plate... Thanks for the explanations though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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