Digging In (Just A Thought)

[Head Mahone]

I have seen in other war games where infantry would begin digging in after being stationary for a period of time. This went for the attacker or the defender and during any point in the game.

The reason I am bringing this up is do to some of the real life WWII accounts that I have read. I have read many stories where an infantryman would sometimes grab his shovel before his rifle when the bullets started flying! I am not asking to simulate this exactly, but an option would be nice.

Say in a meeting engagement you get to an undefended VL. The fighting is already going on in other spots on the map and is sure to come you way. You then give your men the "Dig In" command to the lose of a "Sound Contact - Digging" to nearby enemy units. A few turns later and the artillery barrage that you begin receiving before your enemies attack doesn't do near as much damage. Well, what do you think boys yea or nay?

-Head

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"I don't need my junkie friends all knockin' at my door. I just wanna do an old time waltz with a buxom Irish whore!"

-Shane MacGowan

[Bruno Weiss]

My opinion would be that the reason CM does not do this, is the time scale involved. CM represents a mere hour or so of conflict, (give or take a few minutes).

I have one of those little folding shovels behind the seat in my truck. Even during my younger days when I was in better shape, I'm pretty sure that it would take me considerably more than the scope of time to "dig in", than is available in CM, (which I believe if we take into account the time scale of those stationary periods you refer to, we're talking about a couple of few minutes of "real" time).

I figure you'd need a backhoe to put in foxholes in the space of a couple few turns, and a fast one at that.

Now, could it be that maybe ME's should have "dig in" capabilities ala offense/defense setups? Maybe, I've wondered about that. Even though it is an ME, why was it envisioned that the starting point of "x" was just reached by the opposing forces. That I do find a potential possibility where

the setup of an ME would allow for "dug in" forces.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

A shellscrape could indeed be dug within the time frame of a CM mission. Whether or not they were dug when contact was imminent is an interesting question.

Canadian and Brit troops usually carried full size GS shovels and picks to entrench with, finding the issue 1937 pattern e-tool virtually useless. But they didn't carry the tools with them into action; allowing Brit and Canadian troops the ability to dig in during a CM game would be unrealistic since the tools they would need would probably be located to the rear in their platoon truck.

Not sure how often German or US troops carried their etools; I know the Germans like to carry them in the front of their belt so they could use them as a close combat weapon, but I get the feeling that they and the US also preferred to fight light when possible.

Actually, depending on terrain a full size slit trench (foxhole) could be dug in a half hour; I actually did some photos for one of my websites this weekend with a buddy and we managed to dig a hole for the two of us and his Bren gun in about 20 minutes. Again, though, one has to consider the availability of digging tools to combat infantrymen.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Jimmy Yarbrough]

I think the time scale is a problem. How much cover can you dig out of the earth in a couple of minutes? A proper foxhole or slit-trench is a significant undertaking. I dug a lot of holes at Benning and Bragg.

You can scrape out something in a short period, but it wouldn't be a real foxhole.

[Michael Dorosh]

You can scrape out something in a short period, but it wouldn't be a real foxhole.

Wouldn't have to be; a soldier lying in a narrow shellscrape does receive more protection from shrapnel than a soldier above ground.

The time factor would not be a problem, though you would have to include modifiers for terrain type (sand, clay), weather (frozen ground, etc.) and it would be cumbersome to implement - if you concluded that soldiers were likely to dig in in this manner.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Head Mahone:

I have seen in other war games where infantry would begin digging in after being stationary for a period of time. This went for the attacker or the defender and during any point in the game.

The reason I am bringing this up is do to some of the real life WWII accounts that I have read. I have read many stories where an infantryman would sometimes grab his shovel before his rifle when the bullets started flying! I am not asking to simulate this exactly, but an option would be nice.

Say in a meeting engagement you get to an undefended VL. The fighting is already going on in other spots on the map and is sure to come you way. You then give your men the "Dig In" command to the lose of a "Sound Contact - Digging" to nearby enemy units. A few turns later and the artillery barrage that you begin receiving before your enemies attack doesn't do near as much damage. Well, what do you think boys yea or nay?

-Head

Its a matter of Time.

This game is played in one minute turns.

suppose you issue the command to dig in

how long would it take?

I have no idea how long it REALLY takes to dig in. (Under combat conditions on the front)

Then what? during that period how combat ready or ineffective are those soldiers?

For instance can they spot opfor units?

Can they return fire?

Can they abandon the dig-in command and go and do something else?

At what point would they have actually "dug-in" to a better deffensive posture than they started with.

Do they make more noise doing this?

Are they easier to detect while doing this?

If you have ALL the answers to these questions and research to back it up, perhaps BTS would listen as they design CM2.

Maybe

-tom w

(then again Maybe not)

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage the absence of actual entrenching tools would be, since I think it was common for GIs, at least, to use their helmets as shovels.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this in CM, if it were done realistically; it should probably take around 30 minutes, would not be as good as a foxhole, and would probably drastically reduce spotting -- after all, you're looking at a hole in the ground.

[Guest wwb_99]

But what would be absolutely realistic is digging in between battles in operations, for both sides. Not to mention you should be able to have dug in units on the offense in Assaults at the very least.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[aka_tom_w]

I'm not sure how long it would take?

30 minutes seems a little short to me but I have no personal experience so I really don't have a clue how long it should take.

BUT I ask you this have you ever played even one game of CM where you could afford to have even ONE of your infantry units out of action and "idle" (diggin a foxhole) for a whole 30 minute period during the game?

Anyone? can anybody answer yes to this quesiton.

I have never had the luxuery of being "down" a squad for 30 minutes in this game while I thought they should be digging in.

I like to keep a platoon in reserve in the backfield but I don't want them getting tired digging in, Hell No! they are my mobile reserve, hopefullly they will be keen and fresh in the end game and tip the scales in my favour .

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage the absence of actual entrenching tools would be, since I think it was common for GIs, at least, to use their helmets as shovels.

And as hammers, washbasins, chamberpots, etc. I kind of doubt that the use of a helmet as a shovel was anything but an emergency measure, and possibly tales of such usage are apocryphal.

The other good point to raise is - would you keep track of how far down they have dug, in the event they were interrupted? With one minute turns, that's a lot to keep track of, probably for little beneficial result to gameplay, especially in light of the further suggestion that few men on a CM battlefield are idle.

I do like the idea of digging in on an objective. The Allies realized that German mortar units usually zeroed in on their own entrenchments - Allied troops learned NOT to use captured German entrenchments, since they were pre-registered in the event of their loss.

It would be nice to see CM give an additional TRP bonus to 81mm spotters who have German entrenchments zeroed in.

[Bruno Weiss]

Huh? Where did the 30 minutes come from. An entire battle in CM is only about 60 minutes, and that is based on a 30 turn game. Where is someone going to get 30 minutes to dig in?

I know I haven't had any battles where there is 30 minutes for anyone to dig in no matter what they were using. Besides, anyone ever actually try and use a helmut to dig a fox hole? Under what conditions? In sand on a beach, or frozen ground in the snow, or just good old dirt, brush, and tree undergrowth of the European variety?

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

An entire battle in CM is only about 60 minutes, and that is based on a 30 turn game.

1 turn = 1 minute

??????????????????

[RenoFlame 36]

Have to chime in on this one. Preparing positions implies you are going to stay put for a while. What I enjoy the most about CM is the constant flow and movement of the situation. You can go from hero to zero in one 60 second period.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Huh? Where did the 30 minutes come from. An entire battle in CM is only about 60 minutes, and that is based on a 30 turn game. Where is someone going to get 30 minutes to dig in?

I know I haven't had any battles where there is 30 minutes for anyone to dig in no matter what they were using. Besides, anyone ever actually try and use a helmut to dig a fox hole? Under what conditions? In sand on a beach, or frozen ground in the snow, or just good old dirt, brush, and tree undergrowth of the European variety?

Deep breaths, Bruno.

I certainly don't advocate the use of the helmet as a digging tool. Even the shorthandled etool is almost useless in typical European terrain.

Some games do run 75 turns.

My argument here is that time is not a factor - the factors mitigating against the inclusion of digging in CM are

a) availability of tools appropriate for digging

likelihood of front line troops stopping to dig a position in a game of CM's scope

c) cumbersomeness of applying rules for terrain type, depth of digging (if interrupted), benefit of entrenchments as related to depth, vulnerability of digging troops, the addition of sound contacts for digging troops

From a historical point of view, a shellscrape or even a decent hole could be dug in the timeframe of a CM battle (even a thirty turn one).

This alone does not make it a good idea to include in CM, in fact, I agree with the rest of you that it is not a desirable thing to add as it would be cumbersome, unrealistic, and little used.

[Kingfish]

What happens if they start digging and they break a water main, now you've flooded the whole battlefield. Or worse, they cut the phone line. There goes your TCP/IP game.

No, digging in is not a good idea.

[Bruno Weiss]

Kingfish, that's why your supposed to call Miss Utility first.

Michael, (1 turn = 1 minute)?

Sigh, answer / 2 players @ 1 minute each x 30 = 60

Or E=MC2, squared by the root of pie, and divided by the number of CM players divisible by those who have shovels and those who have helmuts (minus the British, who's standard issue helmuts are not condusive to digging foxholes, so add + 1 minute for them), and in subtraction of the Germans advantage of having helmuts who are better designed for digging foxholes (minus 30 seconds each). And this does not account for the normal toilet paper allotment per unit.

If you follow me.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Head Mahone]

Well thanks fellas and I appreciate the replies! Below is just one of the reasons why I started this topic.

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Henry Williams, D-Day veteran

An excerpt from his book "Combat Boots"

© 2000, Henry C. Williams

We were advancing slowly. The men had learned by now to take advantage of every ounce of protection. Mother Earth was the best protection we had, although camouflage was second best. If the enemy couldn’t see you, you were apt to get by without being shot. I was traveling across an open field when I heard bullets cracking around me. I fell to the ground but the bullets kept coming. The grass was falling over me as it was being mowed. I lay so flat on the ground that I must have made a dent in it. I reached for my shovel and began to dig. And dig I did. The dirt was flying like a gopher was in the area. I would slide backward and dig and then crawl forward and start over again until I was below ground level. Was I tired? Yes, and I lay there feeling good about myself; I was out of danger of the burp guns. After several minutes I took my steel helmet, put it on my shovel handle and pushed it up above the grass to see what would happen. Nothing happened so I ran with the ammo toward the area where the machine guns were supposed to be. I will always remember the 4th of July in 1944.

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Take it easy guys!

-Head

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"I don't need my junkie friends all knockin' at my door. I just wanna do an old time waltz with a buxom Irish whore!"

-Shane MacGowan

[Bruno Weiss]

That's a nice story. What type of terrain was he on, was it damp or dry, how long did it take him to do this, and is this one quotation representative of the entire US Army, or just one fellow, on one occasion, in one instant, of one battle, on one patch of sod.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Michael, (1 turn = 1 minute)?

Simultaneous execution Bruno - you're not serious, right?

1 turn = 1 minute

[Head Mahone]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

That's a nice story. What type of terrain was he on, was it damp or dry, how long did it take him to do this, and is this one quotation representative of the entire US Army, or just one fellow, on one occasion, in one instant, of one battle, on one patch of sod.

Well Bruno, it reads that he was on open ground and that's about it. It sounds like it didn't take very long, but I could be wrong. As for the men in his company, he said they where always digging in. Of coarse this is nothing new, but the makeshift foxhole story was added for the sake of our discussion.

Oh, and Bruno are you always like this? A prissy little prick that is....

-Head

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"I don't need my junkie friends all knockin' at my door. I just wanna do an old time waltz with a buxom Irish whore!"

-Shane MacGowan

[Michael Dorosh]

I think a not unsatisfactory answer for you, Head, is that perhaps this is factored in already. As you may well know from reading other threads, or from your own observations, open ground in CM is very much abstracted so perhaps we can presume our cyber soldiers to already be making use of etools, helmets etc. to make maximum use of their cover. In fact, perhaps this is already simulated and we don't even know it.

As Wille said to Joe (or vice versa) "I can't get any closer to the ground, my buttons are in the way!"

I would contend that the example you put forth is a much different situation from digging a complete trench; the soldier in this example merely made better use of the open ground he was in to hide himself from sight. I am not sure a seperate command for this would be of any practical worth. This is all merely my opinion of course. It was an interesting example; thanks for sharing it.

[Panzer Leader]

My Suggestion (and I am always so full of them) would be:

Every turn a team/squad/whatever remains in place their cover/concealment factor goes up a little bit. SO if a squad was in one place for 5 minutes without moving, they would have better cover than the squad that was sprinting across the valley.

But perhaps this is already implemented? It is by no means an original idea. Just one that works, is simple, and elegant...

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

My Suggestion (and I am always so full of them) would be:

Every turn a team/squad/whatever remains in place their cover/concealment factor goes up a little bit. SO if a squad was in one place for 5 minutes without moving, they would have better cover than the squad that was sprinting across the valley.

But perhaps this is already implemented? It is by no means an original idea. Just one that works, is simple, and elegant...

I like that idea!

It would be nice to learn that it already was implemented?

Maybe in CM2, the longer you are idle, (and/or hiding perhaps?) the better your cover and concealment factor?

Great concept!

-tom w

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

30 seems about like the right amount of time to dig a hole in random ground. It probably wouldn't be that useful in CM, but that's beside the point. There could also be a random chance of entrenching that would start at 10 minutes or so.

Or, perhaps simpler, units which haven't moved for a certain time period might have an increased cover modifier on the theory that they have either dug shallow holes or else used the time to find the best piece of cover around them.

[Spook]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

Or, perhaps simpler, units which haven't moved for a certain time period might have an increased cover modifier on the theory that they have either dug shallow holes or else used the time to find the best piece of cover around them.

BINGO. I only just read this thread, but it's surprising that not very many earlier posts are advancing the above suggestion to allow some notional "digging-in cover" without it having to be full-up foxhole cover. The notable exception is Michael's mention of "shellscrapes."

When CM2 arrives, the issue of digging in within scenarios will certainly come up more often, given that Soviet troops have been argued to be well-drilled at digging in quickly.

Furthermore, foxholes may likely need a more detailed treatment in the future. Right now, even a two-man team in defense status at game start will be given a foxhole that any squad of any size can use. This isn't a big issue in CM, but if some people here will argue the details of how quickly a foxhole can be dug, they may as well also argue about appropriate foxhole "size."