Nashorn useful? (operation spoiler warning)

[illo]

In operation I had 3 hulldown Elite Nashorns over ridge at end of map.

I spotted 3 veteran Greyhounds advancing in open ground at 1300m range. I targeted those and pushed GO!

After 20sec all my Nashorns are dead. I loaded game..pushed GO! and again 3 dead Nashorns.

I thought quite capable Greyhound crews. My Nashorns had only their gun visible(i wonder how 37mm can knock it out) i would understand

gun damaged or some crew casualties. But what is vital part they can hit when nashorn is hulldown?? Is there some magical button that explodes nashorn??

So i have a question.

Is Nashorn useful in its intended role (long range spAT)? I feel it very vulnerable and unaccurate at ranges of 1200-3000m. Elite crews hit maybe 1of10 shots at 2000m. So if over 2 enemy tanks see me simultaneuosly they usually can hit me.

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 01-14-2001).]

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

The beastie is essentially an 88 on a flat-bed chassis. Think of them as artillery pieces, not tanks. They are however able to move themselves around, and have thin armor to stop small arms fire (like MGs, nothing more). They are also huge.

The targets you were shooting at were very small things and probably moving rather fast. Hitting a small target moving rather fast is not what these things are best at. They are best at punching very large holes in the side of big things sitting still at long range.

The ideal target for your guns is a stationary tank. Naturally, you will not always get ideal targets. But those M-8s you targeted are bait more than anything, and you rose to it.

With thinly armored, overgunned and under-protected weapons, like these and other TDs and SP AT guns (Marder, Allied Jackson or Achilles, etc), it is best to site them in places that the whole enemy force cannot see. The way such weapons protect themselves, is that pick out only a small portion of the enemy force by a restricted line of sight, then out-shoot everything along that restricted line of sight.

The idea is to reduce the incoming, return fire. So you do not want them in places were each of them sees everything, and everything sees them (once they fire I mean). Then wait for targets that are worth it, big targets (or close if they are small), and preferably not moving.

The same ambush principles apply with towed anti-tank guns. Your problem was probably trying to use them like tanks. That doesn't work because they are not armored like tanks, as you quickly learned.

[Lacky]

Illo, I know exactly what you're talking about and I'm guessing on the explanation. Vehicles are granted a bonus % to hit their target after they fire their first shot and given additional bonuses to hit after each consecutive shot. The Nashorn's are accurate, but their ROF is slow. The M-8's ROF is extremely high and they can zero in on the Nashorn's quickly.

Your Nashorn's are at a disadvantage when targeting fast, small units such as the M-8. That's another factor working against your situation.

Yet this brings up another interesting situation: Elite Nashorn crews should realize this!

[illo]

I didnt use them as Tanks, I used them as AT-pieces.

I also had 88mm at guns which had no problems in same task and didnt even lost single crew member killing over 10 armored vehicles during 5turns.

So can you tell me why 88mm AT(full visible to enemy) lives so much longer than Nashorn?

Ive heard few Nashorns stopping T-34 companies frontal attack at 2000m range so i thought this was the way to use them, ok I see i was wrong.

But i think you can agree that t-34 is Fast vehicle.

And i really wonder how Greyhound can shoot 37mm so accurately from 1200m at full move.

I will get PAKs next time Those survive easily.

Jason Cawley, i think 37mm ap will only put a little hole in thin armor of Nashorn, goes through and exits to open air behind it. So i still can not see how Nashorn can explode.

Greyhounds could only hit the top of front armor plate and gun. So can someone explain why it goes knocked out?

[illo]

Jason you are right about Marder. Marder should be used like you described using narrow LOS to get flank hits to enemy.

But Nashorn doesnt suite for that because LOW ROF. Marder is much better in that role.

Anyway Nashorn or Hornisse was used quite differently, especially at east front to watch over large open landscapes. And kill enemy with its deadly accurate long range fire. Basicly it didnt need much armor because it could usually kill before enemy could get in effective shooting range

Nashorn was excellent in open terrain, but vulnerable and almost useless in poor visibility areas.

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by illo:

And i really wonder how Greyhound can shoot 37mm so accurately from 1200m at full move.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do I. I've saw two regular M8s hitting a Panther 700 m away while they were moving at full speed and rotating the turret, and the TCs were firing the .50 to an infantry target 600 m away killing 4 men. Did the M8 get an experimental version of M1 Abrams' gyrostabilizer ?

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

"a little hole in thin armor of Nashorn, goes through and exits to open air behind it. So i still can not see how Nashorn can explode."

How is it even possible? That easy. Ammo. The part of the armor that used to be where that little hole now is, is flying bits molten metal spraying back into the gun. The working area around the gun is full of 88mm shells. 2 + 2 = bye bye.

But I tend to agree with you that the lethality of low caliber rounds that successfully penetrate is too high in CM generally. There should be more successful penetrations that result in shock, a crew casualty, or the gun disabled (optics go e.g.), plus a number of "abandoned" results (recoverable between operation battles that is) - and fewer brew up, total losses.

As for the accuracy of the M-8 fire, on the move they should not hit much. Stopped, it is an accurate gun with a high ROF. But 1 kilometer (+) is indeed near its rated effective range, so its accuracy should degrade somewhat. By comparison, the 88 is in easy distance with its ballistics and optics.

Compared to shooting T-34s on the steppe, the target is smaller and was probably moving around the same speed or faster, but the range was considerably lower than most such engagements. That should make the shot easier, I agree (although a closer shot at a moving target does mean a faster angle change to track it).

The main problem using truly long range AT weapons historically in CM is that the battlefields are not large enough to show their true role, shooting from a couple of miles behind the front line. Used up close (nearly everything in CM is "up close" in these terms), they have to be used with "keyhole" sighting to survive.

[Iron Duke]

Illo,

thanks for trying out my operation. I feel your pain when it comes to the Elite Nashorns...they should pulverize those M8's but alas, there is still something wrong with either the accuracy or bracketing of armored vehicles in CM. (Whether you choose to accept it or not...plenty of gameplay brings this up to the surface quite easily)

Anyway, I have found that in CM you need to use different tactics when using tank destroyers with thin skin like the Nashorn.

Definitions:

Tophat: This is the condition when an AFV is basically "Hulldown".

Lowsky: This is the condition when an AFV is basically "Turret down" but the Tank commander can still see over the berm/ridge.

Nashorn tactics for Combat Mission:

1) Instead of Hunting forward, which will force your Nashorn to tophat for the entire minute of wego...use the Move command.

2) With a combination of Move and Reverse, give your Nashorns two Tophats and lowskys in the same firing position.

3) After 2 tophats, reverse down and give your Nashorn a Fast move to another firing position at least 50 to 75 meters from the old position. The reasoning is that you want the enemy to have to reacquire your Nashorn at its new position rather than simply making a minor gun-lay adjustment.

4) Rinse, repeat.

The only problem with this is that your Nashorns will be EVEN MORE inaccurate than they already are! BUT, it is better for them to live and keep missing than it is for them to get maybe 1 kill and die early in the operation.

I hope this helps you out.

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One shot...One Kill

[This message has been edited by Iron Duke (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Diceman]

As you've noticed CM just doesn't do a very good job of modeling long range combat. Steve and Charles designed the game based on combat ranges of 800 yards or less. Fortunately the issue is near the top of the list of things to do for CM 2.

I fully agree a 37mm gun should have absolutely no chance of hitting a target 1500 meters away unless thee gun mount, i.e. M8 in this case is completely stationary. Here's a quote from "Tank vs Tank":

"In 1959 they bought from Britain Centurion tanks with 105mm guns and in November 1960 used them to engage two old German PzKpfw IVs which were dug in to support operations by Syrian patrols at Nukheila. Opening fire at about 1500 meters, the Israelis shot off 89 rounds in 1 1/2 hours...without hitting either PzKpfw IV..."

As can be seen from this real world example it's pretty damned hard to hit anything at 1500m no matter how good the gun without proper gunnery training. BTW the Israelis developed an intense program to improve gunnery discipline and techniques after this incident.

Cheers

Eric

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Pair-O-Dice

"Once a Diceman, Always a Diceman."

[Atlas]

Diceman is correct.

Although the best tactical WWII game EVER, CM is limited in that the size of the battle field (small) reduces the historical usefulness of some equipment.

An 88mm gun had a HUGE advantage over Allied tanks at ranges of 2-4 MILES! (The King Tiger had a firing range of 6 MILES! Uggh.) Thus, a Nashorn would have some use as a mobile AT GUN at long ranges. At 400-800 meters, the Nashorn is a BIG, SLOW (moving and firing), UGLY target.

BTW, the biggest problem I see with CMII is incorporating the vastness of the Russian landscape into a small scale tactical simulation/game. Big Time made a WISE, WISE move starting the series in the wooded West Front.

[illo]

Now my frustration is away and i can talk more clearly(i hope).

Iron Duke, your operation went fine until m8s popped straight to 1300m. I killed All allied vehicles at 1st battle. But allied infanty ran forward. Which had effect that my defences in city where thrown out of it for next battle. (i had 0 casualties)

I tried operation 2 times because i wasnt sure how to use Nashorns. I had doubt they cant be visible continuously but tried still. Enemy armor was spotted at 2500m nashorns killed few shermans and 2 got knocked out by TDs and 76mm shermans. (In first turn).

Then i tried to almost be without using nashorns at all(well i used them like you described but didnt hit much anything) and

got 0 casualties while my 88Flak and 88Pak credited somewhere around 7vehicle kills both. Nashorns getting 1-2.

Idea of operation is very good. And map couldnt be more ideal to Nashorns. I cant see any problems if enemy couldnt "jump" in city without never having to attack in it. But that problem we have in every operation.

With LOS restricted to small area nashorns could kill amis at 2.5km. But Pak and Flak were still much more powerful. Sitting over ridge and picking enemy stationary tanks down. If nashorn wanted to survive shooting stationary target it had to climb to ridge shoot and reverse to cover...but there really wasnt change for hitting.

2500-2300m Nashorns were ok, Pak great

2000m i did never get to try

1600m Nashorns still ok(not much enemy armor) Pak Flak ok

Then greyhounds popped up at 1300m (nashorns had driven to overwatching hulldown positions because i trusted 5x88mm could keep control of field when all enemy armor was knocked out.)

well 5x88 was unfortunately bad choise against 3xm8 they just drove forward avoiding my shots and put laser-accurate shots of 37mm at high ROF to Nashorns.

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Iron Duke]

Illo,

thanks for your reply.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Idea of operation is very good. And map couldn't be more ideal to Nashorns. I cant see any problems if enemy couldn't "jump" in city without never having to attack in it. But that problem we have in every operation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I wanted to use the Nashorns because IMO, they are far underrated and underused in CM. This operation shows how a true defense in depth really works...its too bad about the "getting thrown out of your held ground" thing with operations, I even set the No mans land to 80m. BUT, this also gives the operation another quality, the Germans, even with their small force, must counter-attack in order to maintain control of the rail yard. So many operations and scenario's I have fought completely lack a defense in depth...its usually "ok get to the town and that's where all the Germans are. Which in reality, is a joke. Unfortunately, this operation completely brings out the inadequacy of the Ai vs a human opponent...I think this OP would be better suited to human vs human play.

Question: Have you tried the OP as the Amis yet? Also, just because you won the first 10 minutes doesn't mean you can win the battle Please continue with the OP and try and regain the ground that you lost.

Please keep your evaluation coming and please let me know where the operation is good and where it sucks...

Thanks again,

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One shot...One Kill

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

They are however able to move themselves around, and have thin armor to stop small arms fire (like MGs, nothing more).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in the case of the M2, very often not even that. A .50cal can kill the Nashorn and Hummel out to 600m in CM.

- Chris

[Keith]

Pardon me, but I think all of you guys are missing one crucial thing: the 37mm gun is an excellent long-range weapon that is capable of firing very rapidly. Each of those greyhounds probably got off three shots for every single shot from the Nashorns. The 37mm gun is quite capable of penetrating the armor of the Nashorn at just about any range. I would suggest people do some research on the 37mm before you pass judgement on the game...

[This message has been edited by Keith (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Iron Duke]

LOL!

Oh Keith...

First off...no one is passing judgement on the game. We ALL love this game to death...and probably more.

Secondly...while it is true that 37mm has a rapid rate of fire, one thing that you forget is that the M8 Greyhound does not have a Gyro stabilizer, furthermore, the ranges this operation is dealing with are all over 1500 meters, and more frequently 2500 to 3500 meters.

So I suggest you try the operation out before jumping in with both feet here, ok?

I could send it to you if you'd like? Let me know.

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One shot...One Kill

[Jeff Heidman]

Could someone send this off to me please?

Thanks

Jeff Heidman

[Dittohead]

So how does a 37mm crew adjust fire at 1000m moving at 10-15 mph. In large caliper guns it is easy to see the stike of the round to adjust fire. But with the 37mm you just don't have the magnification on sight or do you? Only if the German optics were this good.

Who loads the 37mm while the cmdr is shooting the .50 cal? Does it have an autoloader?

ROF does not equal accuracy

[This message has been edited by Dittohead (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Dittohead]

Then again it would be nice to be able to select HE to fire against thinly armored cars and halftracks. Even a near miss will have a good chance to knock them out.

[Keith]

I apologize if my message seemed a bit pompous, but here is some technical information to support my position. The M6 37mm gun carried in the Greyhound used a semi-automatic breach capable of firing up to 30 rounds per minute (practical limit was around 20 rounds per minute). Maximum range for the APC M51 shot was around 12,700yds, although in real life hitting anything over 2,000yds distance was a something to be proud of. At 500yds the M51 shot is said to have been able to penetrate 2.1in (53mm) of face hardened armor at 30 degrees obliquity, and at 2000yds the numbers fell to 1.4in (35mm).

At the range described in this message thread the 37mm GUN M6 Squeeze Bore firing Tungsten Carbide rounds was capable of penetrating 46mm of armor at 1500 m.

The 37mm gun was a fairly accurate weapon and given its high rate of fire it seems to be entirely plausable and realistic that the Nashorns were knocked out. The armor of the Nashorn varied from 37mm to 10mm.

[Iron Duke]

Keith,

its not just a matter of...well the 37mm could shoot out to 12,000 yards...big deal. Hitting a hull down target (1 x 2 meters at most), 2500 to 3500 meters is entirely different. The small weight of the 37mm APC round would cause its velocity and thus momentum to drop off very quickly, even with its 2900 ft/sec initial mv, it would NOT retain its velocity nearly as well as the 88L71 round would at say 1500 to 2000 meters. The small 37mm would have a HUGE drop compared to the 88, therefore hitting anything, especially something that small at over 1500 to 2000 meters would be lucky at best. I will grant that within 1500 meters it is a very useful weapon, but anything beyond that, and especially beyond 2000 meters and it's just not practical to shoot with.

I would ask those with the physics charts to please step in here and give us some hard numbers.

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One shot...One Kill