Where Are The Cannister Guns On Allied Tanks?

[MikeyD]

As to the question of an Allied equivalent to the German roof-mounted mortar, yes such a thing existed on Allied tanks but they ONLY fired smoke grenades- no lethal rounds. This is the source those close-in smoke screens when a Sherman spot a Tiger, the roof mounted smoke mortar.

As to White Phospherous rounds, there seems to have been no 76mm WP, and the U.S. 75mm WP shell was actually designed for the little 75mm Pak Howitzer. The Sherman 75mm M3 gun could also chamber the round. By far the most common smoke round was HC not WP. BTS said the considered it to be too exotic a munition to render for the game.

[Andrew H.]

It seems like to use canister correctly, you would need to (1) lead with your tanks (so that you don't hit any of your own infantry with the rounds; and (2) approach closer than 200 m to the enemy infantry.

Both of these sound like bad tactics in Europe in 1944.

:mad:

[Wilhammer]

WP is not an exotic round. It was extensively used for anti-personnel.

BTS did not include it because THEY did not consider it prevalent.

WP was a normal mix in arty fire as well, and, OMG, where is the Napalm?

If WP was modeled correctly in the game, it would effectively render a location un-inhabitable, and we would see Americans shooting this stuff all over the place, flushing out Germans and setting the map on fire.

[Wilhammer]

BTW, the biggest beehive round ever was designed (and apparently used) for the Japanese 18 inch gun. It was designed for AA work.

Tomorrow is the Anniversary of Watchtower. The 37mm gun was prevalent on Guadalcanal for anti-personnel fire, and earned a deadly reputation there.

[Slapdragon]

I am not sure how much cannister was used in Europe on tanks, but it was used in one US weapon quite commonly -- the M18 57mm Recoiless Rifle. In the first months of 1945 in response to an airborne request for added firepower for support units, the M18 had a fairly large (for recoilless rifle rounds which were constrained in the US army and almost nonextistant due to powder shortages in the German army) number of T25 cannister rounds issued to troops. Most were the E5 variant firing 154 steel 12mm ball bearings to a maximum range of 175 meters. Fired by timed fuse, it would create a 5 meter x 25 meter kill zone, shooting the ball bearings at 400 meters per second with more killing power than a .45 round.

The T25 round was not retained after the war because although it was effective, it did not penetrate woods or thick cover, and was thus of use only on advancing enemy. It was used as an anti-sniper round, and to clear streets. In addition, some people claimed that it could be fired around corners in towns, a claim that I am not willing to believe without more data.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

WP is not an exotic round. It was extensively used for anti-personnel.

BTS did not include it because THEY did not consider it prevalent.

WP was a normal mix in arty fire as well, and, OMG, where is the Napalm?

If WP was modeled correctly in the game, it would effectively render a location un-inhabitable, and we would see Americans shooting this stuff all over the place, flushing out Germans and setting the map on fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve and Charles have presented some pretty good evidence that White Phos was uncommon or even very rare. In the US Army WP was fired by one of a few chemical companies (relatively) and used on divisional level to create smoke screens. It was rarely used in an antipersonal function since it obscured the target from view. Of the 18 Chemical battalions equipped with 4.2 mortars in Europe, most were attached at the corps or division level and they were not, despite there quality and power, usually used for artillery on demand.

The difficulty is that WP was used very extensively in Korea, as was Napalm, and was used as an antipersonal round. Later both rivaled HE in Vietnam, so there is a tendency to thinkthat it was always common as dirt and fired by the ton in every US war. In WW2, though it was used, it was not used as much or to the same purpose and regular HE.

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

[Kong]

Just a confirmation as well that 37mm Canister was used in the WTO. Currently reading "A Time for Trumpets" by MacDonald. Story about the Battle of the Bulge. Half-way through and has mentioned several times about canister rounds being used by Stuarts against INF.

Hmm.. if that were available now in CM... would change my view of the Stuart a bit.. I am already a fan of the little guy!

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kking199:

...37mm Canister was used in the WTO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would they be using it in the World Trade Organisation? I mean, I know they've been pretty draconian in dealing with protesters, but isn't this carrying things a bit too far?

:confused:

Michael

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Steve and Charles have presented some pretty good evidence that White Phos was uncommon or even very rare. In the US Army WP was fired by one of a few chemical companies (relatively) and used on divisional level to create smoke screens. It was rarely used in an antipersonal function since it obscured the target from view. Of the 18 Chemical battalions equipped with 4.2 mortars in Europe, most were attached at the corps or division level and they were not, despite there quality and power, usually used for artillery on demand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Kindly cite your source for this view of the operational employment and attachment of the US chemical mortar battalions. Since Steve and Charles saw fit to include the US 4.2in mortar as an artillery weapon in the game and AFAIK no other units employed these weapons are you suggesting they were wrong to put it in the game? If not, perhaps you could explain how one rationalises the typical ratio given by these units of WP:HE rounds fired in toto of between 1:1 and 1:2.

[Ben Galanti]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

Since Steve and Charles saw fit to include the US 4.2in mortar as an artillery weapon in the game and AFAIK no other units employed these weapons are you suggesting they were wrong to put it in the game? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just digging up some old threads (man, Simon, you've been campaigning for this for a while ) This thread states that they almost didn't make it in to the game. It also has some of BTS' rational for not including WP. If I remember correctly (that was getting on to 2 years ago) I think it's the original WP thread. If not, it's one of the earliest.

Ben