Collateral environmental damage

[Hilltopper]

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this, but I've often wondered why sending a barrage of 8 inchers into a forest wouldn't level it somewhat to run tanks through it. It would seem to me that a good arty volley would allow this. Would this not be realistic?

[JasonC]

Um, no. Blown down trees are artificially produced by engineers with explosives when they want to block roads. Also, driving on the moon, one tends to slide around the various gaping chasms of craters. And the earth about 10 feet down has a tendency to be made of clay-like mud.

Enough artillery fire impacting an area does not make it into an asphalt level parking lot. It makes it into a moon-scape of mud, through which practically nothing can move. With men walking on duckboard planking as they lay it down, typically making the fastest going.

[BloodyBucket]

Whew. I thought someone was trying to get the EPA involved in CM.

[Paco QNS]

Hilltopper asked:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>why sending a barrage of 8 inchers into a forest wouldn't level it somewhat to run tanks through it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit of overkill, if you want to prune the forest. Better use the 105 or 155 VT. That´s the dream of a "cra-la-zy" gardener!

As tells JasonC, such an idea only worst the way. I supposse that it is taken into account in CMBO. (I have bogged in open fields -cratered- with a heavy AFV). In a forest is only worst. A real lucky shell can uproot a tree (moreover with retarded fuze) and the Roadblocks (the thorough ones, not the quick-upturned-wagons) are made with a handful of big enough trees. ((Germans use these obstructions in a strategic level during WWI, and I think tactical-operational in WWII)).

JasonC said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Blown down trees are artificially produced by engineers with explosives when they want to block roads.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quickly!, you mean. Otherwise I suppose that´s the fast-noisy-expensive american way! ((you love the 4th of July)).

AFAIK, normally the engineers use their saws ((one of their main weapons)).

and also:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It makes it into a moon-scape of mud, through which practically nothing can move.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing=no vehicles. Agree. But infantry can and, in fact, must. Instant multiple foxholes to progress across in cover. In a wet climate, in the rainy stations is quite slow -because of mud-. But in dry land, summer-end, it is a heavenly present.

Remember, unlike the WWI, in WWII were quite rare the inmense -and prolonged for months and years!- fire concentrations needed to create a moon landscape.

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Paco QNS ]

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Paco QNS ]

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paco QNS:

JasonC said:

"Blown down trees are artificially produced by engineers with explosives when they want to block roads."

Quickly!, you mean. Otherwise I suppose that´s the fast-noisy-expensive american way! ((you love the 4th of July)).

AFAIK, normally the engineers use their saws ((one of their main weapons)).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I once saw an early-war photograph, don't recall whether it was taken during the Polish campaign or the battle for France and the low countries, of a highway that the defending army had tried to block. There was a nice row of evenly spaced trees that had grown alongside the road, and each and every one had been laid neatly across the road by an explosive charge placed about a meter up from the ground. A really nice job. Probably done by the Dutch, now that I think of it.

But the other thing that the picture showed was the tracks that the German vehicles had made as they swung out through the field and then back onto the road. All those lovely trees had died to retard the German attack for a total of maybe thirty seconds. Very instructive.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paco QNS:

Remember, unlike the WWI, in WWII were quite rare the inmense -and prolonged for months and years!- fire concentrations needed to create a moon landscape.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

8th. Bomber Command did that kind of a job on Panzer Lehr in about an hour.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

8th. Bomber Command did that kind of a job on Panzer Lehr in about an hour.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After wiping out Third Canadian Division headquarters - or was that the time they killed Lesley McNair?

(The firepower they could provide was awesome - but their accuracy left a lot to be desired. In actual fact I think it was the RAF and RCAF that bombed Third Division HQ and the Poles - but heavy bomber support was not nearly as sophisticated as the arclights in Vietnam 25 years later).

[Skipper]

FAEs can do parking lots (helo pads, at least), but they are post WWII.

[Paco QNS]

Hey, Michael, on the case of the dutch roadblock, you know the say: "Half work done. No work done, at all". Happens the same with a single roadblock in CMBO, with good terrain and dry ground. No purpose.

On the matter of the tragic opening act of Operation Cobra, see this page

(credit on the "tally-ho"-spotting belongs to Ari, from the topic Good Reading)

((CAUTION: needed fast connection and Zen patience)).

Note that: "Germans could not react effectively to U.S. maneuver units (especially armor) that went back into action on 26 July. German artillery fire, for example, now had to be preplanned. Forward observers had lost their links to German firepower. By 27 July, two days after the bombing, General Bradley assessed the battlefield and concluded that the enemy's defenses had now been penetrated." Close Air Support in World War II: The Roots of the

Tragedy in Operation Cobra

Dr. Michael D. Pearlman

Combined Arms in Battle Roger J. Spiller General Editor

((Pertains to the period covered by CMBO the following chapters compiled by Spiller:

1.Arnhem; 11.Exec. of GI Slovik; 15.Moselle crossing; 17.Bulge; 18.Remagen; 19.Op Cobra; 21.Aachen; 22.Lanzerath; 23.Huertgen; 27.Seine river; 28.Rapido river; 30.Op Pegasus; 33.Op Market-Garden and 34.Op Husky))

[John Kettler]

Hilltopper,

Years ago, I saw a book by Bellamy titled THE RED GOD OF WAR, which was all about Soviet artillery. In it there was a recent picture of a Finnish forest which had been hit by one of those late war trail spade to trail spade Russian barrages. I'm talking a biblical deluge of shells at least as big as 152mm. Know what it did? Took the crowns off all the trees in an enormous swathe, leaving them still clearly damaged thirty plus years later.

Maybe one of our Finnish confreres can supply a picture.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler