Terrain modifications for defense

[Darwin]

The thread on fire got me thinking on on how defenders would prepare the terrain to give themselves maximum advantage.

So how about allowing a defender the option to convert forested tiles within his zone of control to open tiles before the battle starts?

To go even further a defender in low lying terrain could possibly create a marsh in front of his positions further complicating things for an attacker.

Perhaps this could be set up as a purchasable item under the fortifications tab. Open terrain tiles at 5points each, rubble tiles for 5, marsh tiles for 15points, and water tiles for 35points as a possible example.

Is it feasible with CM2's code?

[Darwin]

Hey, thats an idea!

Could help offset the attackers advantage in randomly generated maps. HoW cOoL!!!

[Wilhammer]

Darwin the Clone

[Stalin's Organ]

Yeah - it's a bit sad when you'er the only reply to yourself!

IMO there does need to be a bit of a tweak here tho. I'd prefer to see teh defender given a wider choice of defensive position on a larger map, and then the actual map cut back to just teh area being defended.

The defender would then get to see all the likely approach routes etc, and could set up the defence in the best position available in the general area.

[curih]

Stalin,

Why should the defender get to choose. Realistically, in most situations, it is the attacker who chooses where and when to fight. The exceptions being certain objective that must be taken, in which case the attacker only chooses when.

curih

[Panzer_Meyer]

Seems like a good idea, but to me it seems to...godish. I mean come on, altering the state of the land as the defender, that's way out there!!

CM:BB will have AT ditches, trenches, foxholes, barbed wire and more terrain altering and path blocking objects. At ditches and trenches are fine, that will help the defender enormously as far as how much they will cost I don't know. But 5points for 20m worth of trench wouldn't be bad.

Terrain altering(trenches and AT ditches only) and path blocking(road blocks, barbed wire) is good for the defender but, you can't go as far as making the defender god by giving him the ability to make a hill into a lake.

Just my take on it!

[lcm1947]

Not trying to shoot down a good idea but just mentioning something. Doesn't the defender already have the odds on his side by being able to set up guns and etc hiden? I mean that is a pretty good advantage being able to do that. But it will be nice to be able to have trenches in CM2.

[Michael Emrys]

Historically, soldiers on defense were encouraged to clear brush before their positions in order to create good fire lanes, provided they had time to do so.

Clearing a forest though is an entirely different kettle of fish. I live in a state where widespread clearcutting is practiced. The logging companies have all the time they want to cut the trees down and haul them out. They may then, for fire control purposes, bulldoze all the remaining debris into piles where it may be burned. That said, the remaining land is not exactly what I would want to describe as "clear" even in the rather elastic CM use of the term. For one thing, there is still a lot of debris left to serve as tanglefoot. Most of the native irregularities in the ground remain or have been added to.

What I am trying to get at here is that clearing forested tiles would require an enormous outlay of time and labor and access to heavy equipment.

On the other hand, reducing the amount of cover such tiles provide does not strike me as completely unreasonable. Many forests in NW Europe are actually tree farms (or so I'm told; any natives care to comment?), with trees planted in neat rows and some open space between them. Further clearing of the understory would enable good firing lanes to be set up, and this is exactly what the Germans did at times. AIR, McDonald refers to such an incident in Company Commander.

Michael

[Jager]

I'm from finland and comments on the forests here (and we have lots of them): Very few forests are in neat rows. Mainly places that grow christmas-trees and like. But large parts of the forests are kept in clear of the undergrowth to improve the growth of the bigger trees that bring money for the owner. This is dependent of the age of the forest. Young tended forests tend to have more undergrowth than the older ones.

Just cutting down the forest would actually make it much better cover for the attacker. You'd actually have to get the trees away too. It's much too big job to undertake near the enemy lines.

And to another issue. Yes, the attacker can choose the locations they attack, but the defender has the advantage of being able to choose the locations where they wait for the enemy. So no defender, unless absolutely necessary, will choose a lousy defensive position. It's much easier to choose good position than to modify existing one. So the idea of being able to choose the defensive location from the bigger map, would be in my opinion, very realistic.

[Darwin]

Yeah...

I think you guys might be right, Deforesting could possibly be a wee bit over the top.

Debrushing or de-scattered treeing however

I still like the idea but it would have to be toned way down. So much so that, other than as a nifty feature, it probably wouldn't be worth Charles time.

Removing brush as a defender should be allowed for sure but we never really see brush in QB's anyhow...

oh well, food for thought

p.s. I went to see some bands at my old college last night and man have college girls gotten YOUNG!!! it's not fair I tell ya!

[MikeyD]

CM can do most of the stuff you're requesting. It's call building your own scenario. I've done several scenario maps where I've dropped in rows of rubble squares to represent buildings cleared to creat a field of fire.

As to doing all that 'on the fly', I'd hate to have spent weeks constructing a scenario just as I wanted it, only to find the defender had redrawn the map on me!

[Moon]

Terrain alteration to improve fields of fire and create killing zones is a very valid real life tactic for the defender and pretty much a standard chapter in any tactial manual. This does include chopping down trees, btw. But it requires a lot of time ANd obviously has to be done when the enemy is not within reach, i.e. long time before combat actually comes to that particular defensive line.

In other words - improved fields of fire would be the job of the scenario designer by, for example, providing the defensive setup zone(s) with a "buffer zone" of a couple hundred meters of open ground; it would not be the job of the player. Minor alterations of terrain, e.g. barbed wire, mines, roadblocks ARE already within player control.