Holman Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Hi all, I'm very impressed with the quality of the mods that the artists among us are able to create, and I have many on my system. However, I have held off from downloaded some of the recent tanks with detailed division and other insignia because the markings seem to stand out too brightly in screenshots. In other words, the tank might be subdued and weathered, but the division flash seems to stand out like a neon sign. Is there any way to wash these symbols out a bit more? Wouldn't they then seem more authentic and less freshly painted? Thanks again for all the great work! Martyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Good point, I assume you're talking about Marco Bergman's and Francesco's work. Yeah some of their markings are a bit too clean. But there's not a whole lot the end user can do if they are not mod inclined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Um..... I never wanted to say this because all those Mod makers have put so much time and trouble into there very historically accurate and detailed markings. but.... I'm not sure it was historically correct to go into battle with unit markings like that on the vehicles. Surely the Grogs here would agree that before any unit in ANY battle went to war all unit markings were removed? Am I mistaken? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Ahem, now tom. What about all dem pitures and films. Propaganda? Then too, I've found Squadron Signal publications to be pretty well researched. My thinking is they didn't really have the time, all the time, to be taking markings off and putting em back on. More than likely was a unit by unit, episode by episode thingy. My own preference is to have them on there, but maybe add a little mud, crud, dirt, dust, and grime to some of the newer mods coming out. Not being critical either, on account of they are all beautiful, but here and there I see some that look a little on the clean side. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Sorry but I'd say you are mistaken aka. They might not always have been so clean and shiny but most of the time they where there. Glancing a few books with British vehicles in combat show a clear majority having at least all the hull front markings in place. The turret side squares etc. are a little more scarce. Pretty much all of the markings looks partly covered by gear or toned down by mud and dust though (unintentionally by the looks of it). M. [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias: Sorry but I'd say you are mistaken aka. They might not always have been so clean and shiny most of the time they where there. Glancing a few books with British vehicles in combat show a clear majority having at least all the hull front markings in place. The turret side squares etc. are a little more scarce. Pretty much all of the markings looks partly covered by gear or toned down by mud and dust though (unintentionally by the looks of it). M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok I guess I was wrong My (now mistaken) understanding was that when going to battle ALL units went in without any identifying unit markings so as not to give the OPFOR any addition intel regarding who or what they were fighting. But the markings are very well done and they are very pretty, if they are now known or thought not to be "ahistorical" then I don't have any problem using them at all. thanks -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I believe your correct to the extent that some localized removals did take place, though I can't remember exactly when, where, or under what conditions. (Maybe I'm thinking of the HG Division in Italy). Anyway, if you follow the Luftwaffe marking patterns, the fancy paint jobs began to decrease around early-43, though some units still maintained white rudders and other honorary markings until late 43 or even early 44. Some tried to experiment with no markings at all, but that turned out to be a double edge sword as it reduced the ability to properly identify the Nationality of the aircraft. German gunners on the ground, particularly around that time, were a bit on the trigger happy side so those experiments didn't go far. My own understanding of the issue from what I've read and seen in general as to the ground war, was that it was something of an ebb and flow and differed as to Nationality, time, and place, but that the majority of the time units did have varying degrees of markings. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Well, if nobody says anything, how do I know there's a problem? Revised versions of most of the Sherman mods will be coming out very soon, so if people would kindly email me with specific problems/errors/requests I'll see what I can do. m_bergman@xtra.co.nz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marco Bergman: Well, if nobody says anything, how do I know there's a problem? Revised versions of most of the Sherman mods will be coming out very soon, so if people would kindly email me with specific problems/errors/requests I'll see what I can do. m_bergman@xtra.co.nz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Marco I have always been a big fan of your Mods. they are stunning and I know they take ALOT of work. I hope all this extra effort will earn you at the VERY least a free copy of CM2 if not a little freelance work on the side for CM2. Any way I never commented previously because I was not realy sure if the markings were ahistorical or not. Apparently they are realistic and they do look great. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Most of the allied shermans I see in actual archival photos of tanks in combat/near the front have no such markings, maybe a small marking usually covered up with mud or debri. I would imagine they would be removed so as not to make the shermans so easy to see and also to deny the enemy any intelligence value. That said, the markings should probably not be so bright, unless you're planning on having a parade. jmtcw, Tiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 I gess Maximus and others are also talking about me, Fernando, and my markings on some German vehicles (Panther, and SdKfz 250 and 251). I added them to my mods, because I sorely missed the real marking which were always present in ALL German vehicles. Please check pictures of German vehicles in campaign. ALL tracked German vehicles had Balkenkreuze, almost all of the panzers and lots of the half tracks had numbers (most of the time three, but sometimes one, two or even four) and most of them had divisional and unit markings. There were some tanks and vehicles wich only had a pair of Balkenkreuze during the latter weeks of the war, but they were few. When you check wartime photos of German vehicles, you can find EVERY conceivable combination, from nothing to everything. I always take a real vehicle in campaign as a model for my markings and most of the time I try to use the most common combination. Please notice that many German half tracks had numbers on the side hull late in the war, so if I’m guilty of something then it’s of leaving some markings out sometimes! I try to never use rich, bright colors for the markings. My white isn’t white, but light grey (sometimes it’s almost white though), my black isn’t black, but dark grey, my yellow isn’t yellow but dark yellow and my red isn’t red, but dark red (on my computer at least). I ALWAYS overspray some sand color over the markings (please, check the license plates on the half tracks). Sometimes it’s noticeable by you and sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes I do it well and sometimes I do it bad. AFAIK It also depends on screen resolution, color settings in your computer and time of the day (cloudy or rainy days and nights always alter the shades of the vehicles). I like getting historically accurate mods. I like markings, but if German vehicles didn’t have had them in combat then I didn’t have included them in my mods. BTW, certainly Marco’s markings are a bit on the bright side, but I LOVE them nevertheless. I think his are the BEST mods available, including his markings. Fernando [This message has been edited by Fernando (edited 01-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by Fernando (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Hmm...I think my markings are pretty bright too, and I was thinking of subduing them. Personally, I like the way they stand out, as unrealistic as they are. http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmarmbits.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 So do I Michael, I myself am only suggesting a little more dust, dirt, mud and stuff on the models in general, not necessarily to cover the unit markings. I was really glad to see their inclusion. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: So do I Michael, I myself am only suggesting a little more dust, dirt, mud and stuff on the models in general, not necessarily to cover the unit markings. I was really glad to see their inclusion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, man. I've added unit markings for universal carriers for the three infantry divisions. I'm going to mark up some armoured cars, maybe include Corps units like the 12th Manitoba dragoons. I regret that there isn't a Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) truck in the game - the 15 cwt was ubiquitous - every Canadian platoon had one - and they were commonly used throughout the Commonwealth. Even the Germans used them, especially in North Africa. Since Ford had plants in Germany before the war, they could provide their own spare parts. In a way, I feel sorry for the designers of Combat Mission. They came up with a product so attractive to so many people (armor nuts, infantry nuts, etc.) that they have unleashed all this creative energy - so many people coming up with ways to improve what is to us a game, but to them was their "baby" for many months if not years. And here we all are demanding ways to make it better and wondering why x or y was not included! LOL! (But I'm sure they realize it's all out of love, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted January 17, 2001 Author Share Posted January 17, 2001 Fernando, Your units' markings are actually quite well subdued, especially on your halftracks. I think I first noticed that unit markings stood out too much when I saw a screenshot several weeks ago of some Free-French Shermans with quite large and clean markings (very very white). I can't remember whose mod it was, actually. Perhaps bright markings are particularly noticeable on Shermans, which tend to be dark green or deep olive. Any full-color marks really stand out against such a base. Martyr [This message has been edited by Martyr (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 Michael Dorosh wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Since Ford had plants in Germany before the war, they could provide their own spare parts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Wounds my heart with a monotonous languor." Man, I been wanting/beggin/pleading for a Ford, Opel, anything besides that cotton pickin truck in the German OOB. Michael Dorosh wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And here we all are demanding ways to make it better and wondering why x or y was not included!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hehe, guilty as charged your honor. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 I assume this is what people are asking for. Subdued version on top. [This message has been edited by Marco Bergman (edited 01-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skott Karlsson Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 I'm not sure but I remember hearing that when the 101st Airborne was sent into Bastogne that the men were ordered to remove the Screaming Eagle patches on their uniforms so the Germans wouldnt know which unit they were up against. Can anyone confirm or deny this? ~Skott~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marco Bergman: I assume this is what people are asking for. Subdued version on top. B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good Lord in heaven, man, are those gasoline stains on the side near the filling points?!? I'll bet you even put the spinach between the TC's teeth! Very nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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