Artillery question

[SenorBeef]

In CM, mortars have a much quicker response time and adjust more nimbly than regular artillery. This seems to make sense, and is justified in that mortars are closer in the chain of command/communication relative to artillery - you only have to go up to your company or regiment in order to get mortar support, but you have to work all the way through the division or better for artillery support, and they have their own arty command structure rather than directly being infantry to&e. This seemed to make sense until I gave it some thought. It is true that, if simply requesting artillery in general from anyone available, it would take longer to get a to a regular artillery battery, because you'd have a big chain to work with - but in CM, you have a dedicated battery, assigned only to you. You have a direct telephone or radio link to them, no command structure to 'go through' to get to them. And so regular artillery and mortars would have the same 'communication time'. Then, the justification for mortar quickness becomes the inherent ease of aiming these weapons, or ease of calculating the positions in the FDC. I understand that bigger artillery has a higher reload time, but how significantly does that affect first-shot time? I'd imagine they're loaded and ready to go, as soon as they figure out where they're firing it. So I ask, what exactly is the reason that regular artillery is so much slower than mortars?

EDIT: Stupid 1:30 brain lapse mistakes fixed.

[ 04-27-2001: Message edited by: SenorBeef ]

[lcm1947]

I'll probably be embarrased for taking a crack at this but here goes. I've had a couple of drinks so am feeling brave. The captain or whoever only has to yell over his shoulder, hey private drop some shells on that hill over there where as in order to have arty dropped I imagine you would have to phone the artillary company and get permisson and then give them the exact location to drop it and that would require time to relay that order to the actual people in charge of the guns. Anyway, that's how I justify the time it takes.

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

I'll probably be embarrased for taking a crack at this but here goes. I've had a couple of drinks so am feeling brave. The captain or whoever only has to yell over his shoulder, hey private drop some shells on that hill over there where as in order to have arty dropped I imagine you would have to phone the artillary company and get permisson and then give them the exact location to drop it and that would require time to relay that order to the actual people in charge of the guns. Anyway, that's how I justify the time it takes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats more a case for on-board 60s than anything else. Thats not what I'm asking - I'm asking about off-board 81 and 120mm mortar batteries, which need to be contacted by phone or radio just like regular artillery.

[Michael Emrys]

I can't give you an authoritative answer on this, but my two-penny guess is that the "dedicated" batteries in CM aren't completely dedicated. That is to say that they are yours as long as they aren't busy doing a shoot for somebody else. And it might not be the same battery each time you call them up. So you're still having to go through FDC and they route your request to whomever isn't busy.

Remember, it's just my guess.

Michael

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I can't give you an authoritative answer on this, but my two-penny guess is that the "dedicated" batteries in CM aren't completely dedicated. That is to say that they are yours as long as they aren't busy doing a shoot for somebody else. And it might not be the same battery each time you call them up. So you're still having to go through FDC and they route your request to whomever isn't busy.

Remember, it's just my guess.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think thats true. Firstly, you have on call artillery whenever you want, you're not waiting for anyone to finish another mission - but even if you were, thats not different for different types of artillery. Your batallion mortars could be supporting someone else as much as the divisions 150s. At CMs scale, I think all batteries (and the same battery) is dedicated to you for the duration of your ammo or the battle. I can understand some delay for bigger guns being clunkier, and farther from the target, but not as exaggerated as we have now.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I can't give you an authoritative answer on this, but my two-penny guess is that the "dedicated" batteries in CM aren't completely dedicated. That is to say that they are yours as long as they aren't busy doing a shoot for somebody else. And it might not be the same battery each time you call them up. So you're still having to go through FDC and they route your request to whomever isn't busy.

Remember, it's just my guess.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd agree with Michael for the most part. You probably are "sharing" the battery with other combat forces in the area (your little 2km part of the front isn't the end-all be-all of the action - other companies might be running into trouble too. Factor in things like the wind, humidity, etc., that affect the shell's arc and you end up in situations involving the slight adjustment of fire for a fire-for-effect mission. That takes time. Also, for the batteries, the bigger the gun the longer to get it properly aligned to hit the target.

Experience can slow this down (conscripts: Duhhhh, where is that map grid again?), as can factors outside your control (battery may be low on ammo and therefore loathe to grant your fire mission until they know it is important - may need permission from higher up the chain of command (the General might be holding his artillery in reserve, preventing fire until he grants permission).

Or I could be totally wrong.

MrSpkr

[ 04-27-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[JMcGuire]

As MrSpkr says, artillery was definitely shared. Look for a thread with a name like "arty and why it pisses me off". Somebody who apparently has a lot to do with artillery in Real Life gave a lengthy rundown on this, as well as a bunch of historic details IIRC.

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire:

As MrSpkr says, artillery was definitely shared. Look for a thread with a name like "arty and why it pisses me off". Somebody who apparently has a lot to do with artillery in Real Life gave a lengthy rundown on this, as well as a bunch of historic details IIRC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Artillery is shared, sure. But that doesn't explain why 105s are going to be shared, but 120 mortars aren't. Additionally, bigger arty takes longer to call in, even when dedicated, so its not just a mortar vs artillery thing. The results are repeatable and consistent in CM - theres no "Hold on, we're servicing another company" type of delay - its consistently the same amount of time for the same type of arty. 105s will always take (say, 3 minutes), not 2 minutes sometimes when they're not busy, and 6 minutes sometimes when they're firing a different mission. So this suggests that CM models the artillery actually taking a longer time to fire on target for heavy arty as opposed to lighter stuff. When requesting it, when its not dedicated to you, that makes sense. You have to go to your major, then him to his colonel, ect. But in this case, you're not. You have direct control over that battery, its assigned to you for the duration of your fire missions. Such a disparity in the relative delays in artillery isn't justified on that basis, then. Does wind really make 105s take twice as long or more to fire on target than 81mm mortars?

[JMcGuire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SenorBeef:

The results are repeatable and consistent in CM - theres no "Hold on, we're servicing another company" type of delay - its consistently the same amount of time for the same type of arty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, I asked the same question at the end of some other arty thread -- I think that some one I referenced. I agree, random delays would seem more realistic -- sometimes huge, sometimes the minimum.

Based on the reply from the Real Life arty guy (Whoever You Are), I suspect the delays in CM represent the bare minimum for doing calcs and such, so I guess asking for random delays is slightly masochistic unless you're on the pointy side of the shells.

Edited:

This is the post where jwxspoon posted some interesting timing info for calling in arty:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000645

Also, aussie had a bunch of interesting thoughts near the end of this thread, the same one where I asked about random timing:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000604

[ 04-27-2001: Message edited by: JMcGuire ]

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire:

Heh, I asked the same question at the end of some other arty thread -- I think that some one I referenced. I agree, random delays would seem more realistic -- sometimes huge, sometimes the minimum.

Based on the reply from the Real Life arty guy (Whoever You Are), I suspect the delays in CM represent the bare minimum for doing calcs and such, so I guess asking for random delays is slightly masochistic unless you're on the pointy side of the shells.

Edited:

This is the post where jwxspoon posted some interesting timing info for calling in arty:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000645

Also, aussie had a bunch of interesting thoughts near the end of this thread, the same one where I asked about random timing:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000604

[ 04-27-2001: Message edited by: JMcGuire ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the time CM shows is probably the minimum time required for calcs and such. But the question still remains: Why are 81mm calculations so much easier to be 2 or 3 times as fast as, say, 105s?

[Triumvir]

I've worked with mortars and with gun/howitzers and I think I can safely say that mortars will always be more responsive than howitzers. Reasons:

1) Mortars have shorter ranges. This limits the amount of calculations necessary to lay them, as the maps necessary should always be at hand for the gunnery unit.

2) Mortars are slaved to the battalion HQ, not a divisional arty HQ. Divisional artillery usually devotes one battery to one battalion -- not to one platoon. And even with a dedicated FO, the FDC must process requests in order of priority, not in order of receipt.

3) Mortars are much faster to lay on target than guns. It may take up to a minute to relay a gun to a target at the other end of its firing arc -- not to mention possibly more if you have to change the embedding of the gun -- against up to 30 seconds for a mortar (of course, a good FDC will make sure that such targets are serviced by other batteries...)

4) Mortars are much faster to fire than guns. No one _ever_, unless they're phenomenally stupid, chambers an artillery round in preparation for fire. After even twenty rounds, the barrel gets hot, and leaving a charge inside the breech risks a misfire. With a mortar, firing consists of stripping the charges from the tail and dropping it down a tube. With a gun, you need to load the round, load the charge (if it's semi-fixed, as most anything bigger than 105mm will be) then load the primer before closing the breech and firing.

All the above factors add up and an extra minute is not that much more to pay for heavy artillery fire. It's actually a little more responsive than I'd believe (not that I'm complaining).

[Triumvir]

As for why the calculations are so much faster, consider this little gedankenexperiment.

Let's say that an 81mm has 5000m range, and a 105mm has 15000m range. We'll next say that the effective range is about 50% of the full range in a 180 degree arc in front of the piece. So that gives us a total covered area of about 20 sqkm for the 81s and 180sqkm for the 105s.

Processing where to aim in the 20 sqkm will be much faster than in the 180 sqkm because of the smaller area covered. And if you position the pieces further back (as just about anyone will do) the amount of map shuffling just grows bigger and bigger.

Next, 81mm teams rarely if ever bother dealing with the more complex things in firing such as bore wear and weather. Because artillery rounds travel so high up, weather conditions have a considerable effect on their trajectory; a small headwind on the ground can turn into a pretty damn big one 6km up. And bore wear is pretty silly to talk about on a mortar since mortars are smoothbores; but for artillery pieces, the barrels must be checked for wear because that affects the rifling and hence the fall of shot.

Not to mention the elevation calculations etc that don't need to be done on a mortar, because the FO can simply call in the corrections within seconds; at 15km, an artillery round takes about 20~30 seconds before it reaches its target.

In short, guns need much more care in aiming than mortars and CM adequately (generously, even) reflects that.

[JMcGuire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

but for artillery pieces, the barrels must be checked for wear because that affects the rifling and hence the fall of shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean to say that the calculations can account for varying degrees of bore-wear?

That's pretty amazing.

[Alex heritage]

I'm a part of the brittish military and I can tell you everything said at the top of you letter is true it does take longer for your message to get through to the fire controller,when contacting any artillery above mortar caliber. this however is not the main reason for the delay with "sunk in" artillery it simply takes longer to target the weapon and load. A mobile artillery piece like the vsel 9000 doesn't have to make such complex calculations and ajustments as it can move to make it easier. Concerning mortars they are certainly very accurate weapons, but their main advantage is their ROF, so someone asking for mortar support can tell the fire controller to increase firing and the loader for the mortar will simply starting throwing shells in with a gap of about 2 seconds between each one. Anyway you should stop honking be gratefull they even put the artillery into the game at all!

:cool:

[aussie]

another poi9nt to consider is that it doesnt happen like how a lot of you may have seen it on tv,... whereby an 81 mm mortar fires and hey presto! about 5 secs later the rounds start arriving on target.even a small calibre(comparitively) short range, weapon like an 81mm,can have its round airborne for up to 60 secs to get to target, and thats not at extreme range either, ive seen them in the air that long even when the target was within sight of the naked eye, and u could see the rounds detonating... yes see... did u realise that you can see a mortar round for the firsat few secs of its flight? its quiet interesting to watch,, up it goes,, then dissapears,, then there seems an eternity, then u see the explosion , and depending on distance u hear the sound a few secs later.

also, the fact that u have an FO with you, doesnt mean u have it "on call",, its an option, and for the larger stuff, remeber its not your option, its at divisional level,, ur just the poor sucker out there trying to winkle the other poor guy out of his position, the battle is being decided at that level higher up, and if they decide u get arty sup, ok, if they decdide, theyd rather splinter aircraft seen to be landing by an observation post manned by sas, thats their choice too. that does however support the arguement for varied delay,,, but then ude have to deal with the annoying problem of a refusal....

and yes, atmiosphere and gun barrel wear does affect shell flight,,,, have u ever heard of a drop short!! CHECK YOUR FIRE, I SAY AGAIN, CHECK YOUR FIRE OUT!

[Triumvir]

Oh yes, calculations account for bore wear, wind conditions at 6km up, terrain features between the target, batch of charge, batch of shell, and a whole crapload of other things that happen as routine when firing.

As for drop shorts, I don't think you can talk to any medium artillery gunner who hasn't slaughtered a bunch of poor hapless animals because of bad direction. I know one guy in the Finnish artillery whose battery dropped an entire prep on a reindeer herd. A tame reindeer herd. I've had the same thing happen to cow herds.

Imagine how much damage 155mm rounds do to your troops in CM -- then realise that cows can't run or take cover.

[rleete]

Cows can run. Anyone who has engaged in the now passe sport of cow tipping can attest to that!

[JasonC]

"Your batallion mortars could be supporting someone else as much as the divisions 150s"

Mm, no. Shorter range means they can't support nearly as many units. Divisional 150s might fire at any target in the corps.

Of course, a simple difference of 1 minute is a one-size fits approximation to the reality. A more detailed system might use the log of the number of units in range of the supporting battery or something. Thus -

battalion mortars support 3 units - 1.1

regimental cannon company 9 units - 2.2

divisional arty supports 27 units - 3.3

corps arty support 81 units - 4.4

It is probably close enough as is. But if anything needs changing, it is the fast response time of the heavier guns, which would have to go upward.

As for the idea "but I've got this corps level FO right here, the battery is entirely designated to support me, and on call anytime", it seems to me that is mere excess of literalism. Nowhere is it written that a battery has only 1 FO out and about in the world. A game system needs some way of abstracting the support of so-and-so much fire for guns this or that big. The FO system does that. Of course it does it with far more certainty than any real WW II commander could have, about who would actually fire in support of him, how rapidly, how accurately, etc.

[griffin93c]

As a member of an ARA (Aerial Rocket Artillery)unit in Vietnam, I'd like to respond to your question. From the time we received a call for a fire mission we were to be airborne in two minutes. So let's carry that through. Probably at least two minutes for the radio message from the grunt unit to reach our operations, two minutes for us to get in the air, anywhere from 2 minutes up flight time to target, and probably another minute or two marking target, orientation, before the rounds really start to impact. And we were considered quick response....

So, a 2 minute delay for 105 support actually seems pretty speedy. And this all assumes no competition from other missions.

[abuhabib]

i was watchibg kelly's heroes the other day, n when big joe asked mulligan (the arty guy) to rain hell in 3 minutes, he did it in less that time; almost blowing up big joe himself! :cool:

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

2) Mortars are slaved to the battalion HQ, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... with the exception of US 4.2" mortars, that are a corps asset!

These still get a response bonus in CM.

Cheers

Olle

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

As for the idea "but I've got this corps level FO right here, the battery is entirely designated to support me, and on call anytime", it seems to me that is mere excess of literalism. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not if we're talking WW2 Britain.

AFAIK their FOs did have an arty unit (anywhere from a battery to an AGRA) designated to support them alone for a battle.

This meant fast response but low flexibility and the arty spent most of it's time idle.

US Army used the opposite. No FOs had any designated arty, but they could ask for anything.

This meant huge flexibility and maximum use of available assets, at the cost of increased response time.

Cheers

Olle

[Simon Fox]

Well US chemical mortar battalions may have been corps level assets but I don't think they were employed like corps artillery per se. Evidence suggests that they were generally attached as companies to lower formations: generally divisional or regimental. I would say the latter was more common going by the unit histories.

The British 4.2 was a different kettle of fish being available at a number of different levels of organisation with some brigade size units having organic 4.2s.