bret Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 My search for anything on the topic was unfruitful, and I was wondering if any smaller high ROF infantry guns (such as the 20mm one in SPR which kills the Americans on top of the german tank) is modeled. Maybe its there and I just missed it! Thanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bret: My search for anything on the topic was unfruitful, and I was wondering if any smaller high ROF infantry guns (such as the 20mm one in SPR which kills the Americans on top of the german tank) is modeled. Maybe its there and I just missed it! Thanx<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The 20mm in SPR was an anti-aircraft gun used in a ground support role. This wasn't uncommon in WW2. (Additionally, I have personally seen AA guns used that way in Vietnam too) I would guess that the highest ROF "INFANTRY" gun you would find will be either an SMG or MG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 It was a very common weapon out of neccesity. They made something like 40000 in 1944 alone I think. Lewis http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/disclaimer.html website has numbers on all german tube weapon production [This message has been edited by Username (edited 03-27-2000).] [This message has been edited by Username (edited 03-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 27, 2000 Author Share Posted March 27, 2000 Even though its primary use was not against infantry it seemed that it was a fairly effective weapon just the same. Would their be any advantages to model it in the game or would it just mirror the role played by a .50 cal. How does a 20mm compare to a .50 cal round anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bret: How does a 20mm compare to a .50 cal round anyway?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In diameter alone a 50 cal is by definition half an inch. A 20mm is 20/25.4= 0.78 inch. Its probably 2-3 times heavier and is really a miniature HE shell. Its range and suppresive firepower would be much greater than a fifty. Its mount is very large though and I doubt that it was wheeled around in combat like "SPR". Since Germany was always retreating in the later years, these weapons were often encountered behind the MLR. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 Yes, it is modeled in the game. It is on some German tanks in an Air-Defence role (but, who says it can't be used vs. Infantry or light vehicles? as well as on a mobile or stationary platform. Don't know about the mobility part... The Allies have some AA Tanks as well. The 40mm armed Crusader AA Tank would be KILLER vs German Infantry and their pesky armoured cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 We have the full range of AA guns in CM already. And yes, you can use them against ground targets. The Allies mainly used .50cal and 40mm Bofors AA guns for light AA duty. The Germans used MG34/42s, 20mm, and 37mm AA guns. A small number of Bofors (less than 300) were in German service as well as a bunch of other captured weapons (none of which we include in CM). The 20mm round is significantly larger and more powerfull than a .50cal round. The 20mm guns fired using magazines of 20 rounds. They aren't the best anti-infantry weapon in terms of scoring kills (unless you are close), but they sure do make infantry think twice Where the AA guns really shine is when used against light armored vehicles. A German 37mm AA gun, for example, can knock out HTs and many tank destroyers with little difficulty. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 27, 2000 Author Share Posted March 27, 2000 While we're on the topic of ammunition sizes, does any body know what type of round a bradly fires? Not that it has anything to do with CM but i was still curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 I believe the Bradley has the 30mm Hughes chain gun as its primary weapon. CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 Bradley has a 25mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 25mm Bushmaster cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 For more detail on the potent M242 25mm Bushmaster gun on the M2A3 Bradley, check out this informative site: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/8013/m242.html Madmatt p.s. The AH-64 Apache Helicopter (a,D and D Longbow models) all use the Hughes (Mcdonnell-Douglas)M230 30mm Chain Gun although original specs called for the 25mm gun but this was later up-gunned to the 30mm prior to full production. ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 03-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted March 27, 2000 Share Posted March 27, 2000 Oops, my bad. Sorry for the dis-information. Thought just the LAV had the 25mm. Thanks for the correction. CrapGame out (and going back to hide in the doaghouse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 I believe AAA weapons were regularly used to suppress infantry and light vehichles...Especially on the Ost front. I've seen footage of a truck mounted 20mm cannon being fired on the level to supress soviet infantry. It was reportedly quite devastating, as you can probably imagine. Regs Fen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bailey Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 I have been doing a fair amount of TO&E research for CMMC and the 20mm Flak38 is repeatedly cited as an excellent weapon platform - easy to move, accurate at high ROF, and useful against a myriad of targets. The weapon also served in all types of terrain - woods, dug-in, urban, etc - with a fair degree of mobility. I have read accounts of the weapon serving as the cornerstone of a platoon/company defense and as tactical fire suppression on the offensive. I was wondering how BTS has modelled the mobility of straight 20mm w/o a SP. Can the platform by moved inter-CM or is it stationary? My research seems to indicate that with a full crew, the weapon system should be mobile to a limited degree (maybe 10 meters/minute in normal terrain). Nevertheless, this is not a weapon system that should be moving on the battlefield - selecting and maintaining a good FOF for this platform is the key task. Comments Steve or Beta-Tester??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Again, in "A Time for Trumpets" MacDonald describes many occasions where American quad .50s on AAA halftracks are used against ground troops at the Bulge, not to mention the 90mms and smaller AAA cannon. The historical record proves that AAA guns were a factor in WWII infantry battles, on almost all fronts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Yes the 20mm is portable but it is slow. I've used them as "super-large HMGs" in a scenario in which I was attacking a town. Talk about keeping the defender's heads down I had 3 of them and with them I could suppress any enemy platoon I chose to and suppress it entirely. Very nice weapons Personally I like the Flakvierling 37mm. It has a great anti-infantry punch and is great for defeating enemy recon screens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 In Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker there is an interesting description of a battle in the Polish campaign where flak saves the day during a particularly heavy action. In one instance a 20mm gun is manhandled up a slope (nearby artillery observer officers ran to help). The weight of the gun is mentioned as being '16-cwt' and the unaided crew can't get it up even a shallow slope. From that position it fired a 20 round burst at the nearest identified MG nest or artillery observation post, silencing it. Then they rolled it back down to reload, only to repeat the process multiple times. In one case they fired 4 20 round bursts at a stone watchtower but couldn't penetrate the heavy stone. An 88 was then towed and set into position in the twilight and managed to rubble the tower just before nightfall. -Renaud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Huang Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Hi, Guys : Don't you guys ever watch "Saving Private Ryan" ?? At the last battle in a town, those heros who killed the first Tiger tank were killed by a 20 mm AAA, it can't kill a Tiger tank but it can kill those infantry on the tank. In the battle of bulge, a German infantry company were ambushed by a US 4X50 Cal AAA, and the dead bodies were more than 100. Sarge Huang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Personally I like the Flakvierling 37mm. It has a great anti-infantry punch and is great for defeating enemy recon screens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Perhaps the quad 20mm Flakvierling? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Man a Quad 37 would be a neat weapon to have, wouldn't it The Germans did make a dual 37, but it didn't see much service from what I've read. The guns were mounted "over and under" instead of side by side. Ugly bugger! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 For what its worth. US AA 20m weapon (towed, or track mouted on an APC) was called in the Viet Nam era a Vulcan. After some modifications renamed an Excaliber. Fire rate of 3,000 RPM HE, AP, TP, and tracer rounds Fired in bursts, rate set by gunner 100rnd bust max. And a 'Low no burst' rate of fire too. A 100 round burst of HE would demolish 3 cars stacked on top of each other leaving no piece larger that 1 sq.ft. AP could penetrate Tanks (So we were told) This is the gun that was mounted in "Puff" in Vietnam. One round per sq. ft., I recall them saying, was "Puffs" delivery rate w/ two Vulcans mounted on the plane. I personally wouldn't want one fireing at me. My experiance was with the Vulcans in the early '70s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 My personal favorite German AA gun is the ultra rare twin 30mm. I sure hope you include them in the add-on for CM, Steve when you add in the all the really rare and unusual vehicles that you didn't have time to put in the 1.0 release of CM. They are certainly worthy from a cool standpoint and they saw action late in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Was the German 13 mm MG ever used on the ground or just in fighter aircrafts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Aye, Flakvierling 20 not 37 . The single 37 AAA mount looks cool though too BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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