Sit and Spin (tank grog stuff)

[Los]

I should be able to solve at least the Pzkw V dillema (if there is one?) when I get home. I have a video that shows in detail how to crush a foxhole with enemy in it. It has the Panther twisting back and forth over the whole digging and sinking its treads in to collapse it. (sorry was that too much detail?) I'll look at the video again tonite and see if they're just locking one track and spinning or nuetral steer.

Los

[Guest R Cunningham]

Fionn,

I can only suggest a field trip to Fort Knox, Kentucky for the fourth of July. The stage maock battle and have a parade of the oldies. I imagine they do pirouettes on request. Never been there but always wanted to go.

From Tankers.net:

"Re: July 4th Reenactment Charles Lemons

06/28/1999 6:48:35 PM

Refers to Reply#11156.

This year it will be a two day affair. We will be moving the vehicles on Friday and they will be on site until after the battle demonstration. I am hoping to have the following vehicles on static display. G13 Hetzer, M4A1 Sherman, M3 Hybred Light Tank, M5 Halftrack, M26 Pershing, Jagdpanzer IV L/70 (last two we won't know until friday. Also coming in is another Hetzer, Kettenkraftrad, SdKfz 10, M20 Armored Car, M24 Light, M41 Light Tank, M5A1 Light Tank, M3A1 Light Tank, M3 Halftrack, Kubelwagen, motorcycles, jeeps, etc. Also will have a FLAK-36, PAK-38, Pack 75mm, and M1 57mm AT Gun. Lord knows what else - but should include a repro SdKfz 251, 222, and maybe a 234. Saturday is statics and demonstrations - artillery and small arms, as well as living historians from the 17th century up representing US Military history. Battle is on 4 July at 1330. Museum opens at 1000 and closes at 1800 both days. Hope this is enough information

Charles Lemons, Curator."

________________________________----

"4th of July Demonstration Charles Lemons

07/05/1999 10:17:55 PM

Refers to Reply#12513.

It was fantastic. The German column contained six motorcycles w/sidecars, a Ford 1 ton truck, an SdKfz-10 w/PAK-38, Two Kettenkrads - each with a PAK-36, an SdKfz 222 and 232 (both very good reproductions), two Hetzers, and nearly a complete company of German infantry with a heavy weapons squad. There was also a complete FLAK-36 8.8cm AA Gun emplaced for air defence (it was put to good use)

The American column had M3, M3A1 and M5A1 light tanks, as well as an M24 Light. There was also an M4A1 Sherman Tank. One M3 Halftrack, about four jeeps, an M20 Armored Car and three squads of Infantry.

It was a hell of a battle - lasting about 35 minutes. The crowd went wild when the infatry arrived on the scene. When the P51 arrived - it really got wild with the 88 opening up.

It would have been even more fun if our M26 Pershing had been able to participate - but that (and the Jagdpanzer IV L/70) will be ready for next year.

You missed a good one.

Charles"

_____________________________________________

Maybe that Panther is busted.

[tss]

If the Germans couldn't put neutral steer into Pz IVs I can't imagine the Soviets putting it into T-34s

I've mentioned the book "Punaiset panssarit" a couple of times on this forum. I remember reading a section about tank steering on it and since the author was a commander of Finnish Armoured Brigade at a time when T-34/85s were still in use, I would guess that the details can be found there.

Of course I forgot to check the book yesterday and it will probably be Saturday before I can lay my hands on it again.

-Tommi

[Los]

Howdy guys, I checked out that video. In it, the Panther spins on it's axis by locking up one tread, spinning the other, then repeating the procedure on the opposit side.

Los

[Fionn]

That's differential steering for sure.. NOT neutral steer although I think it had neutral also.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Jarmo]

Actually this seems a weak point in the game,

and I hated it in CC too.

It seems that *everything* moves, stops, rotates, moves again. Am I mistaken, hope so.

I can just understand this with tanks, but jeeps? And infantry too?

[Guest Scarhead]

"also revised F.M. von Senger und Etterlin's book and allowed the data tables to retain the "nein" for "Wendung auf der Stelle."

Other than using wenden instead of Wendung though I think that this term is basically correct and that Spielberger was not involved in the tables, only in the expansion of the main text. It would mean that the entries in Senger und Etterlin's book are

simply incorrect with regard to the Tiger and Panther. "

This is correct, usually there is no difference between "wenden" and "Wendung", one verb, one noun. But I would support Fionn here: While the tanks could be able to spin around staying in place, the "Wendung auf der Stelle" could mean a special feature built into the tanks (or not) allowing for an easy maneuver (no frantic forward-neutral-backward-neutral...) to sit and spin. We sometimes really have slight differences in words, but big ones in the meaning.

I guess I have to phone somebody to persuade him to find a tank commander who should know. Hope he still runs that pub. May take some time.

Scarhead

Wife of the French Ambassodor "Deutsch ist so eine simple Sprache, zwei Wörter bedeuten dasselbe: Senden und schicken" Bismarck: "Nicht ganz. Ihr Gatte ist ein Gesandter, aber kein geschickter."

[DesertFox]

Scarhead,

Don´t confuse the NEUTRAL "gear" of the tank with neutral gear of a car.

Neutral in this context means that the "Seitenvorgelege" on the left and right side can be operated independently and can turn in opposite directions, which is necessary for "Wenden auf der Hochachse oder Stelle". If one gear (forward or backward) is chosen both "Seitenvorgelege" opperate in the same direction and only differ in the turning speed to keep it simple. It´s a question of the steering gearbox if turning in place in the sense of "Wenden auf der Stelle" is possible or if it isn´t.

Furthermore in the Tiger the driver had to do the following after the tank came to a halt: "Kupplung treten, dann rechts oder links anziehen, dann den Knopf am Wechselgetriebe betätigen" (roughly: Coupling, steer right or left, push the button of the "Alternation gearing ?") don´t know the technical term here, but this type of gearing allows the 2 drive sprockets of the tank to turn in opposite directions, which is without this "alternation gearing" impossible.

hope this brings some futher light on this topic <G>

==============

Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

[Fionn]

Jarmo,

You've completely lost me with your post.. Can you explain what you mean in more detail. Tanks move and shoot.. This is pretty realistic. I don't know what you're getting at though.

Desertfox,

The alternation gear you are talking about is the Differential Drive I've mentioned above and is separate from neutral steer.

I know the Panther and Tiger had differential drive and think the I, II. III and IV didn't.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[MOS was 71331]

Special for Scarhead -- I believe the author of the 08/15 books was Hans Helmut Kirst, and the series has been released in English using the name of the main character, Asche. The English titles are like

"Forward, Gunner Asche!".

One of Kirst's novels which was NOT part of the Asche series was "Night of the Generals." This one was made into a movie in 1966 or 1967, with a whole bunch of Brit actors taking the German parts: Peter O'Toole playing the villain, an SS Pz Div CO named Tanz; Donald Pleasence (Blofield (sp) in one of the James Bond flics) playing another German general, the COS to Tanz's Corps CO; Christopher Plummer playing Rommel; and Harry Andrews playing another senior German general -- either Rundstedt or the CO of the military government in France. The only non Brit actor in the film was Omar Shariff (I believe he's Egyptian) playing a German MP major trying to solve a string of serial murders of prostitutes, the murders occurring wherever Tanz, the corps CO, and the corps COS are assigned, first Warsaw and then Paris.

I didn't care much for the Asche series, but I can recommend both of Kirst's more serious WWII novels, "Night of the Generals" and "The Officer Factory."

[Guest R Cunningham]

Hey, this ain't over yet!

Look at what I found:

(and it's from an Irish server, Fionn)

This is from the Tiger fibel and shows instructions for the various turning radii based on gear but it also shows the magical "wenden auf der Stelle" and says it can be performed in 1st through 4th gears as long as you hit the big button on the transfer. Apparently the tank could be started in motion from a complete halt in 1st through the 4th gears.

Hmmmmmmm

Oh iand it also shows the instructions to try to have the enemy at 10:30 or 01:30 on the clock.

[This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 11-17-99).]

[This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 11-17-99).]

[Fionn]

Yes, I have this page for the Tiger fibel and an equivalent from the Panther fibel (as well as the appropriate pages for the 10 o'clock offset).

What are you trying to show? (Not being antagonistic here I just really don't get it.. You'll note it only gives radii of turn in gears 1 to 7 which doesn't mean it couldn't have had neutral turn.)

Could you clarify some more? BTW what's te URL for the site you got this from? I'd like to check it out.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest JonS]

Also not trying to be antagonistic, but this actually muddies the offset hull thing for me. My German is pretty shaky, but it seems to say "keep the enemy between 10:30 and 1:30", which is kind of obvious since the front is where the heavy armour is. To me that does not imply an instruction to offset the hull, but rather to rotate the hull a bit if the threat is outside those arcs.

If the instruction was "keep the enemy between 10:00 and 11:00, or 1:00 amd 2:00" - ie NOT directly ahead, then that would suggest an instruction to offset the hull.

I don't have access to the fibels, so there may be more in there that I don't know about?

Jon

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Quo Fas et Vino du Femme

[Moon]

Literally, it says on the page (and thanks a lot for putting it up, by the way!) -

"try out position 10.30 and 1.30 and remember it. TC and assistant gunner direct via radio"

So in fact it DOES mention specifically positions 10.30 and 1.30! Wow!

[Guest R Cunningham]

Fionn,

Only trying to show that it could "neutral steer" (though the guy from the panzermuseum said no.)

Right there in the middle is that phrase "Wenden auf der Stelle" which mean literally "to turn in place" with the instructions "shift down to 1st through 3rd gear, step on the clutch, pull to the left or right and push the big button on the transfer." This means it didn't have to be in "neutral" to "neutral steer" because the transmission was in gear when it did this.

For those who are interested the link for the full Tigerfibel is http://byrden.com/tiger/fibel/index.html

it has links to all 92 pages.

but all of the images are actually based on

http://www.esatclear.ie/~godot/xx.jpg

where xx represents the page number.

[This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 11-17-99).]

[Fionn]

Ah so this actually feeds into my theory that the Panther and Tiger couldn't neutral steer but could use their differential drives to perform something virtually indistinguishable from a neutral steer yes?

Just trying to make sense of it since that's the conclusion I drew when I was presented with that exact info.

BTW thanks for the link.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Mark L]

Wow! That's a cool link! Thanks, R.C.!

Mark

[Guest R Cunningham]

Fionn,

This bit of info does support you theory in a way. I think this is pretty conclusive that the Tiger could "neutral steer." But I also think this term is misleading. A car in neutral goes nowhere. The other sources that refer to the Tiger being in "gear 0" to do this must be mistaken. The gears are in the transmission. I think the tranny has to be in a gear to do this or otherwise the power doesn't get to the transfer and final drives. The magic must happen in the transfer case with the "big button."

Now if there were only a Panzer III, IV, etc fibel as well.

[Fionn]

Well, the way I read it it says the Tiger couldn't neutral steer BUT could turn virtually in place while in gear but using differential steering to govern each tracks rotation differently.

God it's hell when you get into the minutiae since translations are so rarely exact ...

So I think that the Tiger could turn in place using differential gearing but had to be in gear 1 (or any other gear I suppose although gear 1 would make most sense) to do so... It had no true ability to rotate in place when no gear was selected.

If I read you right that's the conclusion you've reached also right ?

BTW thanks for keeping this constructive and an argument over the facts and not the person behind the facts ANd thanks a lot for that URL. It's a great find.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Bastables]

Forgive me for being padantic Fionn but what occured to you was an ad hominem attack: that is an attack on source of the idea not the idea it self. Sorry just had to do something off topic

Bugger you're correct Fionn, this typing at 0500 after finshing a Thesis is well akward dammit these things need a spell checker.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 11-18-99).]

[Fionn]

Umm, I'm being rather careful NOT to give anyone an occasion to start that whole incident off again by NOT referring to it Bastables.

I merely wanted to thank Cunningham for (in ALL of his posts on the forum) keeping it to a nice (and sometimes hot) debate about the evidence and facts and not the person.

I wasn't trying to refer to anything else that recently happened. I quite specifically singled out Cunningham in this post. (I just wanted that clear so as to leave no-one an opening to start that nightmare up again.)

BTW when you say "ad hominem attack: that is an attack of source of the idea not the idea it self." did you mean to say "an attack ON THE source of the idea" as opposed to "of the source" ? That seems to make more sense to me but the other way does have some meaning also although not one I would necessarily agree with.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest R Cunningham]

Waking the dead....

When Helge, I mean Code Name DesertFox, put up his panther article I went looking at his completed Pantherfibel pages and found where it too addresses this subject:

Besides giving a nice graphic of the various turning radii it shows in the text at the upper right that

"Wenden auf der Stelle ohne Gang geht sehr gut. Du brauchst aber viel Platz. Lege lieber einen Gang rein, ehe Du Kameraden oder Fahrzeuge rammst. "

"Turning in place "without a gear" (neutral) goes very well, but you need a lot of room. Better to engage a gear before you run over fellow soldiers or vehicles."

[DesertFox]

Ahhh R.Cunningham

You are correct, this page and one page of the Tigerfibel, which I am currently working on, let absolutely no doubt about the question if these tanks were able to do the "Wenden auf der Stelle" maneuver.

BTW: AFAIK the Tiger was the first tank which was able to do it.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/

[Lt Bull]

I've been trying to make sense of all this discussion and on seeing that last image posted by R Cunningham (i can't read German BTW) it made me think that we may be confusing several issues together.

Was that image (with the merry-go-round)supposed to be showing turning circles based on what "speed" (or gear) the tank is in? Is it basically showing the principles of centrifugal force (ie. F=mv/r^2)? ie. A slow moving tank can make sharper turns than a fast moving tank? Theoretically correct doesn't expalin much unless you look at the mechanics of how the turn is made.

What would assist greatly in this discussion would be the use of the term "axis of rotation".

I guess it is best to look at the case of a stationary tank turn and a tank turning whilst moving separately.

1) If a tank is STATIONARY, it may be possible for it to ROTATE about an axis passing vertically through the centre of the hull (or near enough) IF it can engage one track forward and the other in reverse. Im sure not all tracked vehicles of WW2 were capable of this. I guess this count turn is what has been refered to as a "0m turning circle" and...I think this is basically how CM models stationary change of facing for ALL vehicles (BTS?).

2) If a tank is STATIONARY but does not have a transmission that allows it to engage one track forward and the other in reverse, the best it could do to "try" and turn about its own axis would be to either:

a) disengage one track (put it in neutral) and engage the other

or

"lock" one track and engage the other

In both these cases, rotation about the centre axis (a 0m turning circle) would be impossible. The theoretical best turn would be a turn about a vertical axis passing through the "disengaged" or "locked" track...ie. approx half the width of the tank. This leads to an important consideration when determining the "turning circle" of tanks, and that is the width the track are apart. Further, it is interesting to consider that when a tank pivots about one track in the manner above, the non-driven track is "sliding" or "skidding" and not neccesarily rotating in any manner.

FRICTION is an important aspect to consider here (in fact, in most of these situations). Depending on the geometry/mass/conditions, it may be impossible for a tank to perform this manuveur all together. Typically, consider a case of a stationary heavy tank with its tracks spaced close together. The power transmitted by the driving track may not be enough to overcome the static friction between the neutral/locked track and the ground. A similar tank that has its tracks spaced wider apart, on the other hand, would be more likely to generate enough torque about an axis passing through the neutral/locked track to over come the friction and effect a turn about that axis.

Generally, the track opposite the driven track would not necessarily have to rotate (ie, the boogies spin) for this manuever to be carried out. Depending on the situation, it may or may not be required for the tank to lock or put the track in nuetral to carry out this turn. Again, based on the friction situation.

Now consider a MOVING tank travelling in a straight line wanting to turn (of smallest turning circle). It is a mass with momentum that needs a force to make it turn.

Depending on the transmission, it could do this a number of ways.

I wouldn't think that tanks had separate "brake pedals" as such for L and R tracks but more like an "accelerator" stick or "gear stick" for each. In any case, to turn whilst moving, the tank must be able to reduce (or increase) the power to one of its tracks so that it the extra power could pivot the tank about some turning axis invariably greater than half the width of the tank.

So here we have a tank with both tracks rotating in the same gear and transmitting power to the ground travelling in a straight line and it needs to reduce power in some way to one track to turn.

Ideally, the sharpest turn at any speed would be achieved IF the tank could "slam the brakes" on one of the tracks and cause it to pivot about an axis passing directly through the locked track. I dont think this is possible. Depending on speed, mass, track width, location of the centre of mass of the tank, it could actually tip over and roll (just like some trucks and cars do anyway!).

The next best thing is to reduce the power being transmitted to one track by "gearing down" similar to taking your foot off the accelerator of a manual car and dropping the gears from say 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 to decelearte the car without using the brakes. In this case the drive to one track is completely disenaged from the power carrying shaft but left "in gear". The track would still be "rolling" or "rotating" as it still has momentum but would slow down subject to the internal friction of the bearings/gears (just like in the car example). Theoretically, the lower gears would "brake" the most.

Again, depending on the track width, momentum of the tank (speed x mass), the magnitude of "frictional resistance to rotation due to internal bearing/gear friction" and the friction the track has with the ground, the tank would turn about some axis of rotation located some distance to the left or right of the tank.

Of course the more momentum the tank has, the harder it will be to turn. It needs a greater "braking" effect to make it turn....

.....looks like I run out of time.

I have more to say but its time to go out and sink some beers

I guess I will let you dwell on this and rejoin this discussion tommorow.

Cheers

Lt. Bull

[DesertFox]

Lt. Bull

We aren´t confusing things here, trust me.

To the Pantherfibel page:

It is showing the minima turning radii depending on the gear the tank is driving. The tank drivers were trained to decide themselves which gear (radius) they had to choose whenever they wanted to turn leftor right. This steering is carried out with the steering brakes, braking one final drive more than the other, but both final drives still turn into the same direction.

Neutral steering is something completely different and in german called "Wenden auf der Stelle" or "Wenden auf der Hochache" lit. Turning in place which means that the tank turns around a vertical axis passing through the center of the hull. To carry out this maneuver the tank has first to stop, then the driver has to switch to neutral, then has to push a button, which uncouples the final drives from the driving transmission and allows the finals drives being opperated only with the steering transmission. Then he has to operate both tracks and final drives turning in opposite direction. It has absolutely nothing to do with braking one final drive and operating the other.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/