IPA Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Today (Sunday the 17th September) is the anniversary of the launch of Operation Market Garden. How about a minute's silence in memory of those gallant men who gave their lives..... IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 When does the minute start? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ----------------------------- "I love it, God help me I do love it so" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PershingII Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Ofcouse......We never forget www.marketgarden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Yeah just finished reading cornelius's ryan book.Boy montgomery sure was an idiot egomaniac an this battle proved it out kinda ironic that america bailed them out, an for it's trouble we had an english general who should have been a pastry chef...who's one goal it seemed was to hinder an harass the american war effort in europe...ohhh the countless thousand's that died for english pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedrik Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Thanks for pointing out this excellent site. Market Garden is not forgotten. tedrik ps. 1 min silence observed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 Flipper, I think you're kind of missing the jist of the thread, which was purely to pay tribute to those brave boys on a significant day in history. I suggest you read "A Bridge Too Far" again. It's a book about tragedy, human endurance, bravery and the fighting spirit. If the only striking feature of book was that Montgomery was ****e, I think you kind of missed that jist too. I'm British, but I don't rate Montgomery either. Maybe you should start your own thread on that one. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magua Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Thanks for the reminder IPA. My 19 year old uncle was with the 2nd South Staffordshire battalion (glider)during the operation. He was lost during the final evacuation whilst trying to cross the river with his mates, when they were machinegunned. When they came out the other side he was gone. His body was never found (or at least identified)and for years after my grandmother always hoped he would turn up on her doorstep one day, alive and well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 Magua, Sorry about you're uncle. There's still a very huge following of people who travel over to Holland every year in remembrance. Iron Cross for one. "Lest we forget". You're from Essex (in your profile)? I'm from Sudbury in Suffolk (sad, I know), but I'm working overseas now. Thanks for the reply. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magua Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Just visited the Market Garden site and found my uncles name on the casualty list (Reginald George Cullen). Phew. Strange feeling. Thanks Pershing II for pointing me there. IPA hope your well and having fun where ever you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PershingII Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 youre wellcome Mangua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 flipper, in jan 1942 german u-boats savaged merchant ships along the east coast of america leading to what they called their "second happy time". the British had already warned the americans of the u-boat threat as they had broken the german codes, but the american cic of the atlantic fleet,admiral e.king, ignored the warnings as he had a known dislike for the brits. Many lives and ships were lost. american pride ? my point is that top brass, whatever nationality usually put their own interests above the troops under their command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flipper: Yeah just finished reading cornelius's ryan book.Boy montgomery sure was an idiot egomaniac an this battle proved it out kinda ironic that america bailed them out, an for it's trouble we had an english general who should have been a pastry chef...who's one goal it seemed was to hinder an harass the american war effort in europe...ohhh the countless thousand's that died for english pride.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If view of the large (?) number of British people reading this board, I would suggest you moderate your tone. If you wish to have a discussion on relative merits of generals, I am more than willing (probably in a different thread). You might want to read up about Tunisia (Kasserine Pass), or the Bulge before we do. Oh, and if you read my signature, you will find that Arnhem was an unusual move for Montgomery. Oh yes, and 'A Bridge Too Far' has been critised for several factual errors. ------------------ The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall) [This message has been edited by Sailor Malan (edited 09-17-2000).] [This message has been edited by Sailor Malan (edited 09-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 Good on you IPA. It's a pity Flipper had to bring down the tone of the thread. It's ironic that a denizen of a nation that produced McArthur should be blathering on about 'idiot egomaniacs'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4FanAWOL Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 Thanks IPA for the posting. Don't want to get into a flame war but Monty was the first allied commander to defeat the germans in a major land engagement in WWII At the battle of El Alemain. His opponent was a fella called Rommel His victory raised morale of the civilians and military of the Allies. He proved that the germans could be defeated in battle. If he was cautious, it was as a junior officer on the western front in WWI that he experienced at first hand the waste of soldiers lives by callous commanders. High casulties for limited returns were unacceptable politically in the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc throughout WWII. For America with a population over 200 million and low casualties from WWI the situation was different. Post Vietnam, American military thinking has also changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 hey I get the gist of your point's...England had lot's of excellent officer's it's just that of all of them montgomery being in the position he was...was the worst! second alemein the falaise gap to name a couple are example's of that...speaking of bad general's Urquhart shoulda been court marshalled after that fiasco he definetly wrote a hefty chapter on how not to conduct an airborne landing...on the good my favorite high ranking english general was Auchinleck history history does'nt give him a better place imho montgomery showed up late to the party an took all home all the glory..an a helluva alotta people paid dearly for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 4FanAWOL: Thanks IPA for the posting. Don't want to get into a flame war but Monty was the first allied commander to defeat the germans in a major land engagement in WWII At the battle of El Alemain. His opponent was a fella called Rommel His victory raised morale of the civilians and military of the Allies. He proved that the germans could be defeated in battle. If he was cautious, it was as a junior officer on the western front in WWI that he experienced at first hand the waste of soldiers lives by callous commanders. High casulties for limited returns were unacceptable politically in the UK, Australia, New Zealand etc throughout WWII. For America with a population over 200 million and low casualties from WWI the situation was different. Post Vietnam, American military thinking has also changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's interesting you should say that about Monty's experience during WW I bringing about his renowned cautious approach. If that was the case, then why Operation Market Garden? I just wonder what happenned in that period of Monty's life to cause an about face & have him backing a risky plan at best while others would describe Market Garden as having been reckless right from the start. Just curious. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 competition..the allied high command was petitiong all the commander's on the use of the allied first airborne army, an monty had a plan called "comet" which he expanded to include the use of the whole airborne army/corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 4FanAWOL: ...Monty was the first allied commander to defeat the germans in a major land engagement in WWII...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not sure if you're counting the Soviets, but Zhukov threw the Germans back from Moscow in December, 1941. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flipper: ...speaking of bad general's Urquhart shoulda been court marshalled after that fiasco he definetly wrote a hefty chapter on how not to conduct an airborne landing...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hardly a fair comment. Urqhart had been given command of the division only a short time before the operation. He was not a paratrooper and not experienced in their tactics. He and his staff requested that the division be dropped closer to the bridge, but the Air Force refused due to the proximity of anti-aircraft batteries where the planes would be making their turn to go home. Urqhart should have protested to higher authority, but as I say he was inexperienced and knew it and accepted the view of the "experts". Once on the ground, he probably conducted the battle about as well as any other general could have. He was a good general put into a command slot that demanded specialilzed skills that he hadn't yet acquired. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 Actually urquhart was a fine officer serving in africa,sicly...etc but as with all officers promotion to higher command bring's alot more responsibilty's.For starter's in something as fluid as an airborne operation a commander has to be centralized as intouch with as many element's as he can possibly be...not galavanting through the front line's with his second in command in tow all because of a communication's breakdown.This fact alone almost getting himself captured an putting himself out of the game as it were probably cost the red devil's at least a couple of thousand casulaties,hence the command breakdown in his absence as well as arranging for a less senior commander to take over in lieu of urquhart an lathbury missing by giving command to a less senior commander an then not telling the senior commander of such a plan is just plain stupid! naturally friction arose over this bewildering command arragement when the senior commander(shan hackett) was informed of this "arrangement" furthemore urquhart's distaste of hackett he refered to him as a "broken down old cavalry man" show's his gutlessness! in not organizing a cohesive force or at the very least in informing hackett face to face of his competence.This to me show's more than anything else the glib-arrogant type of commander that he personified.Even thou the author refer's to him in word's such as reticent keep in mind this book came out many year's after the war so maybe he did learn alot about himself in the year's that followed in all fairness to the drop zone question there were those who wanted to coup des main the bridge but they were shouted down as "asassin's"...but in the end it was urquhart who made the decision to drop 7! mile's from arnhem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted September 18, 2000 Author Share Posted September 18, 2000 I promised myself that I wouldn't respond further on this debate, but frankly I couldn't let the "Urquhart should have been court martialled" statement go. That is an outrageous ill considered conclusion which appears to be based on a single source, even though that source (A Bridge Too Far) attaches no great blame on any command decision errors that Urquhart made during the battle. As far as I'm concerned once Monty's plan was set, there was nothing that Urquhart in his limited capacity (a division commander) could have done during the planning stage or battle any differently to change the final outcome of the Battle of Arnhem. The writing was on the wall. Ryan's book is a classic and is largely responsible for the great interest in Market Garden to this day. But in line with "Sailor Malan's" comments "A Bridge Too Far" is not the definitive account of OMG and contains numerous jumbled sequences of events and factual errors. Enough said. There have been literally dozens of books on the subject, but what must be considered the two definitive accounts of The Battle of Arnhem are from the British perspective - Martin Middlebrook's "Arnhem 1944 - The Airborne Battle" and from the German perspective - Kershaw's "It Never Snows In September". Middlebrook goes into great detail on the hour by hour progress of the battle down to platoon level and provides very detailed OOB's (Kershaw similarly but not quite as detailed as he deals with the whole of OMG). As such both are excellent resources for accurately creating CM Arnhem scenarios. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sailor Malan: if you read my signature, you will find that Arnhem was an unusual move for Montgomery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Offhand I can't recall the name of the operation, if it ever received one, but there was a plan to drop an airborne division behind Caen, with an armoured corps, if I remember correctly, racing around the German flank to link up with the paratroops. Market Garden didn't appear out of thin air as a plan. Whatever Montgomery's weaknesses as a person, the attacks on his ability, it seems to me, are completely unwarranted, and often seem to be seated in either ignorance or hindsight. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 Urquhart? Court-martialed? No way. Let's see you pull a victory out of that situation he was in. Yeah, so I'm ticked off. I always am when this subject comes up. Magua, thank you for your uncle's sacrifices. He shall not be forgotten. May those who fought in this horrible cauldron and hell of a battle rest in peace. Surge Polonia! (More than 1 min. of silence observed here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 On the topic of ignorance an hindsight...... well one out of two ain't bad how can I be ignorant?...I'm just using hindsight after all it is history we are discussing is'nt it? the fact that it took 30 corp's almost three day's to go forty mile's pretty much doomed this operation from the start.The fact that two ss panzer division's in reality one almost full strength panzer division were astride the main objective turned this operation into a disaster.That make's montgomery the ignorant one especially when one "major urquhart" had the gut's to raise the red flag...and was strongly urged to shutup or get the boot!...but too read of montgomery's machination's after the war to continue to cover himself in glory is just too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 I always feel the same way my namesake felt: "What the???!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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