Targeting

[iggi]

Suppose I have a tank firing at an enemy squad in a building. Meanwhile I order one of my squads to run into that building. Will my tank keep firing at the building(keeping it's orders), or will the tank stop firing at the last minute to avoid hitting my guys. Or will the tanks behavior depend on it's experience.

[Moon]

If you target the enemy squad, the tank will keep firing at it as long as it is within sight or until another, juicier or more dangerous target appears. If you target the house (area fire) the tank will keep firing at it until the end of the turn. The solution is simple: use the PAUSE command to have your squads be a few meters away from the house at the end of a turn, then cancel the tanks firing orders. The pause command is a powerful tool if used right...

[Guest Captain Foobar]

Moon,

I could have sworn that I heard a different answer on this before. Obviously, you have a lot more exposure to it than I do, but I remember someone saying that the AI will not fire into its own troops.

I would try a search, but with 38,000 posts now ( ) , only Guachi would have the patience to do that ;p

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fnord

[This message has been edited by Captain Foobar (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Ted]

Moon,

Since you brought it up…

Is there or will there be a way to give the command to Pause in the middle of a move. That is to have a unit move for 30sec, pause for 15 then continue for the last 15 seconds of the turn?

[iggi]

Moon said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you target the enemy squad, the tank will keep firing at it as long as it is within sight or until another, juicier or more dangerous target appears<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lee said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The tac AI has been tuned to not retarget

any more unless it's under serious and immediate threat from

another enemy unit<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do juicier targets still alter target orders?

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Moon]

Ted - no. You can only issue a pause at the beginning of a turn. (This already gives the player - IMO - too much to micromanage with, and pausing at waypoints would make it even worse, leading to unrealistic "textbook" attacks, timed down to the second.)

Iggi - argh! See, the problem is that CM is not built "if a then b". It's much "fuzzier" than that, so it's hard to explain certain things (me being German adds to this no doubt). Yes, juicier targets MIGHT mean that the tank shifts fire. But it boils down to the definition of "juicier". Infantry does not fall into this category anymore. But a Hummel (big gun, easy to destroy) might. As far as I understand, the threshold for units to change their targets has been adjusted, so you won't see it as often anymore as in the beta. Distance plays a role, too.

[Lee]

I'm not sure if easy-kill/high-value targets would cause your unit

to retarget or not. Unless the enemy unit is a big threat I would

hope the AI would leave it alone because you might really need that

unit to keep firing at who you told him to to support an important move

you are making.

I guess the real question is if the enemy unit poses no serious/

immediate threat to the friendly unit will the tac AI still retarget

if it considers the enemy unit a valuable target, an easy kill and

that is has a golden opportunity to take it out. I just don't know.

Have to ask Charles, I guess.

[iggi]

Thanks Moon/Lee. I wouldn't want the door closed completely on some targets of opportunity. As long as there is a(safe ) way to coordinate the assault.

I had a tiger firing on a building that I had ordered mechanized infantry to run into.

The tiger was pounding away and when the infantry entered the building, the american squad had enough foobar and ran out of the building. However in another attack, the US squad was more stubborn and my infantry received a little friendly fire. It's a risky move. Do you chance it and go in under fire or do you risk a pause in open ground? A lttle experimenting should find a balance.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-05-2000).]

[iggi]

Perhaps for CM2(perhaps), you can have a special drill where you select the supporting units and the assaulting units. This can only be done if there is an HQ in proximity to both. Then the 'attack' order is given to both the support and assault forces. The two forces would be coordinated in this unique attack order.Specificaly, the infantry would assault a building while under coordinated armor support.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Moon]

Lee - yeah, Charles is the holder of the key But besides that, I think when an assault on an enemy position depends on that suppressive fire THAT much, something is wrong. I get the impression from this forum often that people are trying to do too much, too quick, too exact.

Example: when putting down covering fire, have it last for more than one turn. Don't forget - one turn is 60 seconds only! If you soften up the position for a few turns, then not only can you retarget the tank should it decide to go after something else, you also won't have to rely so much on it in that last few seconds.

Besides that, and I forgot to mention this previously: when laying down suppressive fire, by all means: use AREA FIRE! Area fire has a VERY high treshold before the AI retargets, and it will indeed not go after jucier targets at all.

Iggi - you don't have to pause in open ground. The secret to the paus command is to estimate the time it will take you to reach the objective, and pause while in cover.

Example: say it will take you roughly 15 seconds to run from those trees to the house. Issue two pause commands. That will mean that your platoon will start moving at something like 40 seconds down the turn. At the end of the turn it will be roughly 5 seconds away from the house. Perfect - now you can cancel the firing order from the Sherman just in time. The platoon will actually keep moving right from the beginning of the next turn (it executes an existing order, so there is no command delay) and you can storm the house while the enemy is still keeping its heads down.

[iggi]

Thanks for the example Moon. Neat handling of the pause feature. I can have a movement order into the house but have my infantry arrive early next turn so that I can stop the support fire while the enemy has it's head down.

Actually, I think I like this better than a special assault order since the former rewards the player that has more practice and doesn't make the game too easy.

[Black Sabot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

Thanks Moon/Lee.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Moon Lee. Sounds like a Chinese woman i once knew

[Lorak]

Question: I was under the impression that the AI would stop firing if it saw friendly units at the target area. For example: A squad is firing at a enemy squad in a house. If the squad sees a friendly squad enter the house at the target area it would stop firing. But if the friendly squad entered from behind the house (out of LOS) then the suppressing squad would continue to fire.

That was my take on things.. Am I wrong?

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[Moon]

Lorak - you're right! I just ran a short test on this and indeed - a tank putting down covering fire will stop firing once a friendly unit enters the target area! It's a coded in feature according to Charles... How the heck could I have missed that?!

[iggi]

What about arty? Will an arty strike stop if one of your guys routes or moves on purpose through the target zone?

[Lorak]

Iggi, Thats a tough call. The FO if he sees your guys he might stop calling in the artillery. But due to flight times your guys will still suffer a turn due to the shells in route. Best to let your shells fall, cancel your FO's target next turn, and issue a 30 sec pause to the troops you plan on moving. This should allow the shells in route time to hit before your guys start moving.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[Colin]

Trust me you want to be able to call in arty anywhere. Calling in arty on myself has saved my ass at least twice. It saved a PBEM game completly.

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Visit my webpage!

http://cm4mac.tripod.com

[iggi]

Actually that's what I was wondering too. Can you call arty on yourself. This vietnam vet told me that he had done that.

In last defence, I've called arty in an area that I raced my buttoned up stuggs through. I hoped it would keep the zooks heads down .

I also wouldn't want a routed unit to cancel my fire order(or would I?).

Just wondering how it works in the final and what was the reasons for it. I can wait for the manual though.

Thanks

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"Don't tickle with the fingers, hit with the fist"

-Heinz Guderian

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Lorak]

I agree with that. If I have a squad, with no chance of escape, being overrun by a lot of enemy units. Then yes, I'm going to call down the fire on that area. Artillery, Mortars, whatever is avalible. I do feel bad for the friendly's there.But you really have no choice. War is hell.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[iggi]

I wonder if we can have infantry follow behind walking arty? I heard that the allies did that at Vimy Ridge (WW1). I mean I wouldn't want the FO to cancel a fire mission cause he thinks you are too close to the explosions. I would prefer to lose a few guys than have my momentum stopped.

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"Don't tickle with the fingers, hit with the fist"

-Heinz Guderian

[Moon]

Arty fire is not affected by the position of friendly troops.

[Guest Captain Foobar]

It cannot be targeted automatically in relation to the infantry, but if your FO has LOS, and you are very careful, you can arrange a rough "walking barrage". If you change the FO's target only a short distance, the delay will be anywhere from 20 -60 seconds. Choose new targets every turn that lead your infantry by 50 - 100 meters.

[Mark IV]

Arty modeled in CM is mostly battalion-level due to the scale, and thus a little different from the wide-frontage, painstakingly-planned walking barrages of WWI (and some of WWII, including BoB), by divisions and corps and such, for huge masses of infantry. The kind of artillery we've seen so far (in the beta demo) is mostly "ad hoc": "hey, shellac the perimeter of that village" or "help! Kill everything around the church right now!".

You can schedule infantry behind the barrage but once the stuff is launched, the saying is "artillery has no friends". If something goes haywire with your evac, or your advance, you have the same local weather as the other guy. Still, following a good 105-whacking up with an immediate charge seems productive.

Calling in arty on one's own (US) position was common at the Bulge (and with both sides on the Ostfront), and there's no good reason not to be able to, since one would have clear LOS to one's self. Of course it would have to be maintained for optimum accuracy, and LOS could be compromised in the unassing process.

But never, ever, call for 9th Air Force tactical bombardment in support of local ops (unless you're German). The 30th Infantry called them the "American Luftwaffe"...

[Guest Scott Clinton]

I noticed in the demo that when I target units in buildings, if they suddenly become 'unspotted' and revert back to just the 'national symbol' (instead of their normal squad images) my tanks will cease firing at them and choose another target (they were NOT destroyed).

I found this feature of the AI to be somewhat...frustrating.

Has this been changed?

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Guest Big Time Software]

Units will not waste ammo firing at things they can not see, so this has not changed. The alternative is to lock a unit into a target until it pops out again. This is a tough call. Certianly if the target was just passing behind something small you would want contact to remain active (and we did tweak things so this will happen), but after that... tough call!

Say a target goes unspotted in the first 2 seconds of the turn and does not come back out. What then? Should your unit sit there doing nothing for 58 seconds when there might be plenty of targets available?

Unfortunately there is no good way to code up the TacAI to somehow guess what it should do. So if the target goes missing after a few seconds the TacAI will look for something it can actually shoot. Personally, more often than not I would be pissed off if it didn't.

If you want to make sure that a unit keeps pumping fire into a target, use Area Fire. That ignores pretty much any prompt to shift targets, though it can often cost lots of ammo for little gain. Use carefully!

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-06-2000).]