Croda Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 Do a Search you jerk!!! Ok, now that somebody's said it, to my question. What is the logic behind my inability to give targeting orders to a unit on the same turn that I order the to disembark? Par example: I have an arty spotter on a HT that is rushing into the fray. I stop the HT on the reverse slope of a wooded hill that has LOS to the enemy I want to rain death upon. I can tell the FO to disembark during the orders phase, and I can tell him where to position himself, but I cannot instruct him to target the enemy. I see this as a problem. It can cause a turn delay in issuing the targetting order, which can make a huge difference in making or breaking an attack, as is the case with the VT shells I need to drop sooner rather than later. In my opinion, once any unit leaves the confines of the transport, it becomes an autonomous unit again, and should behave as such, allowing both movement and targetting orders. Does anyone have any recollection of the logic behind disallowing targetting on the same turn as disembarking? ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmorse Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 Hmmm a picture of "Things to Come" Croda? Arty, half track, VT...... perhaps I will see these things in the not to distant future. Now lets see where those reverse slopes w/ LOS that need a halftrack to transport are, shall we........... ------------------ If frogs had uzi's, snakes woudn't mess with them so much. - Hiram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 19, 2000 Author Share Posted December 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdmorse: Hmmm a picture of "Things to Come" Croda? Arty, half track, VT...... perhaps I will see these things in the not to distant future. Now lets see where those reverse slopes w/ LOS that need a halftrack to transport are, shall we........... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heh, you fool! You went with early war, meaning no dastardly VT for me in our match!!! BTW, have you begun your setup? I made a minor boo-boo which I should just have to live with. If you haven't begun your setup, I may request the opportunity to fix my error, if you have begun, forget about it. My fault for not thinking. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 self-indulging bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saru3000 Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>self-indulging bump<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Croda,Croda...There's no need for name calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueball Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 You can save yourself a turn by issuing the disembark orders while the halftrack is moving. The unit won't disembark until the halftrack is stopped, but he will do so at the end of the turn and proceed to where you directed him. Immediately next turn, you can give him targeting orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cueball: You can save yourself a turn by issuing the disembark orders while the halftrack is moving. The unit won't disembark until the halftrack is stopped, but he will do so at the end of the turn and proceed to where you directed him. Immediately next turn, you can give him targeting orders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I realize that. What I'd like to know is the reason why he can't get off the halftrack and target on the same turn? Getting off the HT takes seconds. There's a wasted amount of time where the unit cold certainly be targetting the enemy. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 Croda, Just so I understand your question correctly, you want the FO to target while he is still embarked (but with disembark orders already given)? Or did I read that wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 I want to be able to tell the FO to disembark, and then target as soon as he is done disembarking. So he would get off the HT/Jeep/Tank, run to the copse of trees, and target the hill 1,500m to the north. This way, he doesn't get in position with 45 seconds left in the turn and just stand there. He begins to target and I can run some time off of the arty countdown. Otherwise, that 45 seconds is wasted and it will take an extra turn for the shells to drop because I can't issue the targetting order until next turn. Make sense? ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 It's assumed that it takes tim for the unit to get out of the vehicle, get all his gear straightened, run to where you want him to go, etc etc. During this time he simply cannot target a spot. Consider: spotting for artillery requires the spotter be stationary, with his whatever gear in order and the radio ready. He can't be doing that while bailing out of an armored vehicle (tough to do without injuring yourself even without any extra crap) For infantry units this is the same, magnified by how many guys there are and the inevitable confusion. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 I have to agree with Croda on this one. I've had similar issues with MG teams that are embarked: [50 cal loaded in a halftrack, with the Platoon leader] Butterbar to team leader - When we get to that wall, I want you to jump off, set up and start laying down suppression fire for 1st platoon's assault. Team leader - No can do sir. We can't take any targeting orders until we are off of this track. Talk to us after we get out of this thing. Butterbar - but that is going to hold up the assault for an extra turn! What are you bozos going to be doing for the last 45 seconds of the turn? Team leader - Smoke em if you got em sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: I want to be able to tell the FO to disembark, and then target as soon as he is done disembarking. So he would get off the HT/Jeep/Tank, run to the copse of trees, and target the hill 1,500m to the north. This way, he doesn't get in position with 45 seconds left in the turn and just stand there. He begins to target and I can run some time off of the arty countdown. Otherwise, that 45 seconds is wasted and it will take an extra turn for the shells to drop because I can't issue the targetting order until next turn. Make sense? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes it does. As to why you can't, I believe the answer lies in something you said earlier in this thread: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In my opinion, once any unit leaves the confines of the transport, it becomes an autonomous unit again, and should behave as such, allowing both movement and targetting orders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem (as I see it) is that, unlike movement, targetting requires a LOS input to determine it's effectivness. As long as a unit is embarked it loses it's autonomous status and thus it's ability to determine LOS to a target. ------------------ Frag Hanoi Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman: Consider: spotting for artillery requires the spotter be stationary, with his whatever gear in order and the radio ready.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not so. The FO is really just calling in the coordinates of the strike. It's not like a laser guided bomb. The FO can be moving while he has a location targetted also. As for infantry. Are you saying that a man with a rucksack and an M1 rifle can't jump out of a HT, run to the woods, lay down and start shooting? These aren't old men who need an oxygen break, they're agile, mobile, and hostile fightin' machines! Appreciate your response, but I don't think it works. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish: The problem (as I see it) is that, unlike movement, targetting requires a LOS input to determine it's effectivness. As long as a unit is embarked it loses it's autonomous status and thus it's ability to determine LOS to a target. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So if I understamd you correctly it's more the case of working around a 'coding anomaly' than it is meant to depict some real, physical delay? If I'm told it's coding and would take a lot of work to get around it, I suppose I can accept that. But if it was overlooked or done intentionally I'd like to hear a good reason why. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 Croda, would YOU want your arty spotter calling in the 155s while charging across the battlefield? Imagine the radio conversation: Arty guy to arty battery: "This is...hufff...oh ****, this is Arty guy, I need a strike on {sound of tripping and dropping radio} mark 546, fire..hufff..YAAAAAHHH!!..rounds of HE," Arty battery to arty guy: "WHAT?!" Next, infantrymen carry a lot more than a rifle and a rucksack. Machine gunners and mortar men carry a lot MORE than that. Getting all that out of a transport takes time, I'm sure. I don't think it should be "they can target and fire the instant they drop out the door." Even the SWAT guys need a few seconds of shouting HUT HUT HUT! Also, who here knows the real-war arty spotting routine from extensive research, actually doing it, etc? Not the SOP/book method, but what was actually done. Was it usually "jump from a vehicle and start the run to location X while also extablishing radio contact with the battery and finding the exact coordinates for the target from the map you're holding while running?" Or was it usually "jump from a vehicle, run to location X, set up your radio and lay out your mape, and then establish coordinates?" Okay, here's a new point. Imagine this situation: CO to arty guy: "I want you to jump out of that vehicle, run to those trees, and target a strike on that house!" Arty guy to CO: "Sir! What if I can't see the house from those trees? Should I call the strike in blind?" CO to arty guy: "Hell no you stupid unprintable! If you can't see the target then contact me and await further orders!" So CM simply abstracts this to read: if you're jumping off a vehicle you lose the ability to start the arty-call procedure. I'm of the opinion that CM actually OVERESTIMATES the capabilities of some of the units. I think that squads disembarking should incur an extra time penalty over and above the command lag to simulate getting out of the vehicle, etc. I also think that arty guys shouldn't be able to call in arty while moving at all, as the uncertainties of spotting etc should rule this out. If the guy has a LOS and starts the strike, and then loses LOS, I'd rather have him stop the strike immediately than let the shells fall while he has no LOS to correct. DjB [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 12-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Okay, here's a new point. Imagine this situation: CO to arty guy: "I want you to jump out of that vehicle, run to those trees, and target a strike on that house!" Arty guy to CO: "Sir! What if I can't see the house from those trees? Should I call the strike in blind?" CO to arty guy: "Hell no you stupid unprintable! If you can't see the target then contact me and await further orders!" So CM simply abstracts this to read: if you're jumping off a vehicle <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are missing the point. Croda's not asking that the FO actually start targeting the arty while embarked, but rather that one off the vehicle that the FO not need to waste what could be as much as 59 seconds to plot the target: CO to arty guy: "I want you to jump out of that vehicle, run to those trees, and target a strike on that house!" Arty guy to CO: Yes sir, but you'll have to give those orders again at begining of next turnafter I dismount. Even if I get to a spot I can see the target this turn, I'm just going to sit there with my thumb up my butt until the next turn starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 Good points, Doug, especially the thing about the HUT HUTtin. I hadn't considered that AFAIK, the FO either carried a radio (walkie-talkie type), or used a wired-radio in a CP. Probably the latter more often than not. And what's really pissing me off is that the more I think about it, the more I'm seeing things your way, dammit! Let me think... ... ... ... I suppose he would have to run over and be told where the local commander wanted the strike. Ya, I guess it works. Crap-Crappity-Crap! Oh well, I think you got it. At least I've got an answer. Thanks for the feedback. Note to other people on this thread: This is how to admit you're wrong: gracefully, and not in a flame-war, you lunkheads! Try it sometime. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 Marlow, check what I said about somebody having to point out where they wanted the strike. If the local unit had a radio, they wouldn't need the FO, I guess. Typically, I think FOs (often times Coy commanders?) would call back the strikes themselves. But in this case the FO has to run over to where he's going to call the strike from, find out where the local unit wants the strike, and then call it back. The amount of time is certainly abstracted, but that's the nature of the game. I can live with it. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 I suppose. I'm not actually that concerned with the way the transported units are handled, as it doesn't often have a huge impact on the game; however, I really don't see why it makes sense to let a dismounted but moving FO actually call for fire while while the guy on the radio in the track can't even receive general targeting orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: Note to other people on this thread: This is how to admit you're wrong: gracefully, and not in a flame-war, you lunkheads! Try it sometime. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ Frag Hanoi Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably means me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 Not at all. Referring to hordes of nameless folk, really. The avoid a flame-war, you lunkhead - oxymoron was intended, and in jest. ------------------ WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! - THIS SIG FILE BELONGS TO A COMPLETE FOO. MR T WOULDN'T BE SO KIND AS TO WRINKLE AN EYEBROW AT THIS UNFORTUNATE BEING. PLEASE OFFER HIS PARENTS AND COHABITANTS ALL SYMPATHY POSSIBLE. MAY BE CONTAGIOUS. CONTAINS ARTIFICIAL SWEETNER, INTELLIGENCE AND WIT. STAND WELL CLEAR AND LIGHT WICK. BY ORDER PETERNZ Damn Croda. That is one funny sig!!! must suck to be you - Hiram Sedai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlow Posted December 20, 2000 Share Posted December 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: Not at all. Referring to hordes of nameless folk, really. The avoid a flame-war, you lunkhead - oxymoron was intended, and in jest. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was referring to the lunkhead part, and not the flame-war part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 OOhhh...nameless folk! I heard of them! Sell their own grandmothers for a new 3D card. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: Thanks for the feedback. Note to other people on this thread: This is how to admit you're wrong: gracefully, and not in a flame-war, you lunkheads! Try it sometime. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's not enough. Kneel down and kiss his feet. There, see how we Cesspooler's support you when you get into the rough outside the Peng Challenge Thread? ------------------ Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties, Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices! But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli, All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother! We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more, We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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