Guest Lord General MB Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Soldiers, Hmm. Do you think CM2 will include the "Elefent"? How about the problem plagued "Panther"? I Can't wait to get out onto the field and use a T34... But will CM2 acount for thing like this? Like tank engine problems, Tank MG's jamming, Tanks running out of fuel (as happened to 6th army many of times). ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Lord General, I think most of your points also happened quite a bit on the westrn front also. Basically If your tank made it to the battle chances of it lasting the whole 30 min to an hour were really good. Things like fuel, engines ect... pretty much happend on the way to the fight, not in it. One thing I don't think I have ever seen though, is a weapon malfunction on a tank. Like the coax getting jammed ect.. Thats just my .02 though. Lorak [edit: sad when you can't even spell your name right. <sigh>} ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool [This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 10-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Don't forget about Soviet problems: Sending wireless radio traffic in the clear, the js II tanks' ammo being in two seperate parts, the lack of initiative from the lower-echelons of command, Russian adherance to massed attacks that never varied to any degree, russian artillery that did not follow their advances, etc. The Russians did not have an inexhaustable supply of manpower; when Germany went on the defensive after Stalingrad, there are accounts of Russian troops consisting of older factory workers, children, and even women. They saved the real soldiers for their Guards units. Often the Russian soldier was sent into battle with little or no training; infantry or tanks. They suffered staggering losses of tanks and personnel. The Germans often beat the Russians at 5:1 odds against, sometimes even more. Not trying to be anti-russian but both sides had numerous difficulties. As for stuff like engine problems and running out of fuel, BTS could have modelled these in CM but did not I think because it would make the game more frustrating than it would be worth to play. Maybe these types of problems are best left to a higher level of operation? -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Sirs, What I'm saying is this: These things happened during fighting in Russia. Thus they played a part in WWII warfare. THUS they should be included to for the sake of relisim... (The first panther models {used during actaul combat} tended to brake down and should there-for play a part in a game that simulates warfare) ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 For a great account of the war in Russia, read "Panzer Battles" by gen. Menthellin. He does a great job of describing the dificulties faced by the whermachet, and how they countered them. I agree that tank MGs should jam sometimes, especially the German MG34, which was known to constantly jam unless kept perfectly clean. I don't think Panthers should be made to break down, as this would be a problem for the overall army. Tanks don't break down in an hour long battle, they break down on the 8 hour drive to the battle. If breaking down was a part of a battle, it would be just too unfair to have your armor immobilized before contact with the enemy, even though you did everything right, ie stayed on roads in winter, moved slow to prevent bogging. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Sir, MG's Agreed! Why do they never jam? The Panther broke down... I'm not talking about imobilsing. I'm thinking along the lines of bogging temporally...... ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 I have had an MG42 HMG jam on me. In the middle of an operation. While being rushed by a Company + of US riflemen. Luckly, my 150mm arty arrived just in the nick of time. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Tiger wrote: The Germans often beat the Russians at 5:1 odds against, sometimes even more. True, but I'd like to point out that sometimes Russians could beat Germans with similar odds, that is, when Germans had 5 men to 1 Soviet soldier. A case point (from the Kiestinki area like the example I posted today in another thread): in early September 1941 a Soviet 80-man detachment broke through lines of SS-division Nord and lodged themselves in their rear area. Germans tried to destroy the infiltrators first with their immediate reserves (I don't know how large these were, probably a company or two, a batallion at most) but got thrown back. General Siilasvuo (only officer of a foreign army to ever have command over a SS division) then dispatched one full SS batallion from Group J's reserves. Even with that batallion and almost 10:1 superiority, Germans couldn't destroy the pocket for few days and even then most of the Soviets escaped unharmed to their own side. Siilasvuo was not impressed. Though, the SS division Nord was one of the worst German units in 1941. It probably has the questionable honor of being the German unit that stopped fastest. Less than 18 hours after its initial attack against Salla village started its commander General Major Demelhuber had to report to his superiors that his division couldn't attack anymore. Some of its men routed as far back as to the Army Corps HQ and demanded that bridges should be blown up so that Soviets couldn't use them. (To clarify: the Soviets didn't even dream of attacking at the sector). - Tommi [This message has been edited by tss (edited 10-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord General MB: Soldiers, Hmm. Do you think CM2 will include the "Elefent"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I hope so. 90 Ferdinands (or Elephants) were made and most were wiped out by infantry over-runs when they advanced faster than their supporting forces during the battle of Kursk. Since it played a prominent role in that battle, I'd suspect that it will be modeled (at least I'm hoping it will be). ------------------ Jeff Abbott [This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 10-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Soldier, wwb_99, I'm talking about MG's on tanks! They never jam! ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 A while ago BTS Steve promissed me Ferdinand in CM2. (I wanted to see it in CM1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: The Germans often beat the Russians at 5:1 odds against, sometimes even more. -john<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Please stop this crap. The beat often SOVIETS (not Russians) at 5:1 because thats the battles that were advertized by their own propaganda! If you read some of the battle desriptions Germans frequently changed the numbers to their liking... Let me give and example of propaganda: "German new fully equipped divisions fought with the enemy hordes and withdrew with almost no losses. Now after reaching their new defense lines some of our batalions were down to 50 men." So suddenly units by themselves lost all manpower? Rather obvious lie. If you look at number of soldiers in the Soviet/German armies until mid 1944 soviets often had 3:2 advantage. Since mid-1944 2:1. In battle of Moscow Germans had the advantage (until mid winter) 5:1 battles in which Naziz won were frequent only in their propaganda movies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 It's not crap, it's taken from a book by Maj Gen von Mellenthin. I hardly think he's trying to propagandize in a book that was written well after the war and are more of his memoirs than anything else. If you ever read his book, he has nothing but praise for the soviet soldier and his capabilities, however Mellenthin does point out the weaknesses and accomplishments of both sides. I tend to believe someone who was there and in France, Greece, Afica, the East front and back to the West front, than you, sorry. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>5:1 battles in which Naziz won were frequent only in their propaganda movies... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I seriously doubt this. Soviet tactical doctrine often resulted in massive casulites in both troops and tanks. The Germans made similiar mistakes, but it was due less to tactical doctrine and more due to strategic doctrine. I'm sure you can find instances that apply to both sides. You can take this nationalism too far killmore till your side looks like "perfection on earth". Others tend to try and take a historical perspective. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T34Rules Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 With regards to CM2, i hope the subzero temperatures on the Steppe will greatly factor into any of the winter scenerios..e.g., the operation of vehicles and weapons, as well as human factors. The Red Army should have many scenerios with much higher morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: It's not crap, it's taken from a book by Maj Gen von Mellenthin. I hardly think he's trying to propagandize in a book that was written well after the war and are more of his memoirs than anything else. If you ever read his book, he has nothing but praise for the soviet soldier and his capabilities, however Mellenthin does point out the weaknesses and accomplishments of both sides. I tend to believe someone who was there and in France, Greece, Afica, the East front and back to the West front, than you, sorry. I seriously doubt this. Soviet tactical doctrine often resulted in massive casulites in both troops and tanks. The Germans made similiar mistakes, but it was due less to tactical doctrine and more due to strategic doctrine. I'm sure you can find instances that apply to both sides. You can take this nationalism too far killmore till your side looks like "perfection on earth". Others tend to try and take a historical perspective. -john<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well concerncing German memoirs & memoirs in general one must remember the climate they were written in, Ie, Cold War, also one could make a strong case the German memoirs were written to show the author in the best light, Ie, Manstien's memoirs have recently come under scruitiny concerning statements about Stalingrad & his part in the debacle etc, as well as Mellenthin for his comments on the Soviet troops in general. A perfect example is the case study's written by German officers for the US Army after the war, well for the most part they are accurate to the German situation their are errors as well as bias and attempts to downplay faults, when compared to Soviet material. The Memoirs were written for the most part concerning the Eastren Front, with exceptions one sided with no Soviet input to corolate with. Basicly they are good anecdotal reads into the German situations & the Cold war themes of all mistakes were Hitler's, & fighting the faceless Russian hordes, they have their place, but one must not take them as gospel, the same goes for the Soviet era memoirs that were published in the West they were highly sanatized by Soviet censors before they ever reached a printing press in the West. This also affects many of the earlier works written on the Eastren Front, Ie, Seaton, Zemike, Clark, etc as they relied for the most part on German materiel. Only now in the last few years as more Soviet material is declassed and compared to German material are we getting a bettewr picture of the battles on the Eastren Front. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schatzi Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Hi there, without trying to glorify any army, I would like to note that my granddad spent 6 years in the war (on the front) and 5 of those on the east front. According to his experience they (the Axis forces) where usually outnumbered, especially towards the end of the war. The Axis forces often had to withdraw because they ran out of ammo. Mostly the quality of the Soviet Army was poor (he claims that they where often drunk) and they seldom had contact with the Soviet guards. He also states, that their attillery did the most damage (and the Russian winter). His maxim was never to get caught by the Russian army - the Axis forces where apparently terrified of getting captured. Anyway I`m just saying what I heard from him (yes it is a very subjective opinion). I myself can`t say what it really was like ( I`m sure it was living hell for all participants on the east front). Ralf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Sirs, I think this post is getting a little off topic... Mabye we can forget about the armys and all, and get back to Tank MG's and engine problems. T34rules made a good point... The weather could easily be a bigger factor then it was in CM, and should effect engines and the lot, plus: T34 says that it should effect morale to a degree. TRUE: The russain moral improved at the sight of snow. Lets hear some opions... ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T34Rules: With regards to CM2, i hope the subzero temperatures on the Steppe will greatly factor into any of the winter scenerios..e.g., the operation of vehicles and weapons, as well as human factors. The Red Army should have many scenerios with much higher morale.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (putting on engineer hat) How the hell did the russians get DIESEL engines to start in the cold weather? If anyone doesnt know, diesals are a bitch to start in most cold climates. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vimes Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How the hell did the russians get DIESEL engines to start in the cold weather? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I could tell you… but then I would have to kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: [edit: sad when you can't even spell your name right. <sigh>}<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You missed 'western' and 'etc.' too. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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