Boris Balaban Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Where does the LOS start for infantry? At ground level at his feet? At chest level? At head level? Where does it end when you spot something (mostly infantry)? Head, chest, or feet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Related question ... had an infantry platoon dug in (foxholes) behind a stone wall. They were spotted by the enemy although it was pretty clear to me that the wall obstructed LOS plus they were supposed to be lower than ground level because of the foxholes. It did not feel right. Can you clarify if a guy standing in a foxhole is actually standing on ground level as depicted or he is standing (kneeling), say, 1 meter beneath groud level ... Thanks, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott C Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Thomm - Where exactly were your troops? If it was the American left flank in Last Defense (by the wheat field), the wall there is extremely poor cover. Yes, it does block LOS, but the Germans are coming down a hill on that flank. So, they can see OVER the wall, which troops on the same level could not. This is one of the things that make CM so much better than other wargames - something that covers you from one angle won't necessarily cover you from another angle. As far as the foxholes go, IIRC they are modeled as being below ground level, but are displayed at ground level to make them easier to see. ------------------ Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 It was the wall line to the "right" (facing the Germans) in front of the victory location house. The foxholes were even on a reverse slope behind the wall. I really looked fool-proof, and the LOS even intersected terrain polygons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 It was my understanding that it was a "feature" of the beta that foxholes could be spotted even though the troops in them were still hidden. Did your opponent area fire at the foxholes or did he target your squads directly ? I also believe (although God knows I could be wrong) that this "feature" is longer be available in the "gold" version. Death to Smileys Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It was the wall line to the "right<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, you saw that hiding place too? I thought I was the only one that saw it as a good place to hide the bazooka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Well well well. It seems like some people are still coming to terms with the 3D nature of CM and its implications. If you check out the German lines of approach you'll note that many of those lines of approach are actually at much higher elevation levels than the wall and the area immediately behind it which your guys hid behind. IF you want to test this out for yourself onetime play both sides of a game... Put all your guys in foxholes behind walls and then put ONE HMG team on the top of the hill on the right hand side of the map about halfway to the river ( from the Germanpoint of view obviously). I'd be willing to bet that this HMG team will spot any US guys in foxholes behind the walls on the right side of the map but will fail to spot any US guys in foxholes behind the wall on the extreme left of the map ( just in front of the leftmost part of the village). I know this because someone did this to me in a PBEM game and was, by virtue of the angles, able to spot my men hiding on the right but totally missed the guys hiding on the left. In effect the HMG team can see OVER the wall on the right and spot the foxholes while it can't see over the leftmost wall since it is much farther away. Also, bear in mind that what is visually represented as a single foxhole is actually a MINIMUM of 6 and quite possibly 12 individual foxholes. Its actually quite easy to spot 12 foxholes in open terrain. Now, if there were some trees or woods immediately behind the wall then you could hide guys there and they'd be almost impossible to spot. Neutral Party, I don't think that the foxhole spotting thing is a bug.It represents spotting foxholes but not being sure if they are occupied or not. PBEM tip: If you REALLY want to freak an opponent out bug out of a bunch of foxholes while he can't see you. Once he spots the empty foxholes he will either: a) charge in with a company or so of troops and end up 1) showing you what forces he has and 2) being very rattled when no-one is in the position he has just attacked or he'll hit the foxholes with arty and tank fire and you can cause him to waste LOTS of irreplaceable ammo on empty foxholes. Remember, an empty foxhole is completely indistinguishable from an occupied foxhole occupied by guys with very good fire discipline until your troops are within a few metres of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Fionn said: Remember, an empty foxhole is completely indistinguishable from an occupied foxhole occupied by guys with very good fire discipline until your troops are within a few metres of it. ************************************** Fionn: So far in my games (although beta demo) In MOST cases I have seen troops cannot refrain from firing until the enemy is within a few meters. This holds true even with the implementation of ambush markers, they seem sto open up prematurely at anything <45 meters ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 You must be making a mistake in ordering them SSPL. In one game which I was going to post an AAR for (but which fell through) I had an entire German platoon in Riesberg hold fire until the US were only 10 metres away ( EVIL GRIN !) . 40 metres is a good nice distance to open fire from. It is close enough to be devastating and yet far enough away that the enemy can't sprint into close combat range before being decimated. IMO now you should always aim to open fire when the enemy is no closer then 30 metres. With ur guys opening up at about 40 metres you still will obviously wipe out the recon squad the other player sent forward to scout out the foxholes and that's the aim of the game after all. So, unless I'm not understanding you I think it is performing exactly right ( although to be fair there are some targetting bugs in the beta demo but its been so long since I played it that I've probably forgotten their exact details). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted April 26, 2000 Author Share Posted April 26, 2000 Fionn did you troops hold fire because you had ambush targets set at 10 meters in front of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Boris, I forget the exact height LOS is calculated from, but it is about waist height I think. And it is from unit center to unit center. I do think there was a spotting bug with foxholes in the demo. I can't say for sure, but it does ring a bell. Thomm, you might have been bitten by that OR the general problem of some unit someplace else spotting your guys. Say a unit to the Left up on a hill might be able to spot you. Then, of course, EVERYBODY knows where you are Fionn is also correct about the impact of a lot of units dug in. Generally foxholes were hasty things and were not well camoed. Unfortunately, CM doesn't draw a distinction between the two so the only type you get are the ones that are realistically easier to spot. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Fionn, Not too clear on how I could make a mistake ordering them I do the following Place the unit Put it on hide Set up ambush target marker What can I be doing wrong - please offer some tips if im missing something This also brings me to my next question I send out troops to reconitor ahead - I get fired on - so I know they are there - yet it seems no matter how I advance on the positions My guys come off worse what gives here? Thanks for the tips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 26, 2000 Share Posted April 26, 2000 Oh and another thing What gives with the ARTY spotters ? they are targeting from their original position and box says 1 minute - three turns later they still are saying 30 seconds ?? Thanks ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 04-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 'Place the unit Put it on hide Set up ambush target marker' SS, there is a problem with that order sequence if I recall correctly in the beta demo. If you target the ambush marker after placing them on hide, the unit will actually unhide and target the market. You should leave the hide command until the ambush is properly set up. I could be wrong, but I believe that was the case with the beta demo Its different now, so dont worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Ok Krazydog thanks man I'll wait to see how things go with the gold BTW great work on the textures bud ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Oh, and with the arety guys Its not a science. That figure is the spotters best guess. If it takes the gunners an extra couple of minutes to zero in of the target point there aint much he can do about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Ok thanks for that clarification, I thought they had radio contact/field telephone to get a precise TOT good to know Does it ever come sooner? ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Thanks SS Steve and I just finished up a totally new texture for the Pz IV. Probably all up there is 20-25 hours gone into that one, but it was well worth it, she came out very nice. Ill sure youll be seeing some piccies from matt in the near future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 They do have radios, but it takes the spotter time to zero the spotting rounds in which of course isnt something that can be a definate. The better quality the spotter is, the better he is at estimating the time it will actually take to zero in those spotting rounds. Think of the counter at a count down to when the artey guys let loose with a full barrage. Until they know they are going to hit where you want them too, they cant do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Kool deal krazy thanks for the tips can't wait to see the pix from Matt ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 SS-PL, Kwazy is right. What you were, in effect doing was saying: Hide, Set an ambush on that road, Now stand bolt upright in your foxholes and sit there until the enemy hits the ambush marker. Obviously, your guys get spotted since they aren't hiding anymore and once they know they're spotted the TacAI says " Well, the hell with this ambush malarky. I'm gonna fire back." That explains your situation. It's all fixed in the Beta though. Has been fixed for about 4 months or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: I do think there was a spotting bug with foxholes in the demo. I can't say for sure, but it does ring a bell. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There definately is a (reproducable) bug in the beta demo that let's you "see" foxholes without having spotted them. For those who don't think this sentence makes any sense, forget it. The others should know what I mean... Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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