'Zooks PIATs & 'Shrecks Unlikely Kills - anyone noticed anything?

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

I have played many many many CM games now (hooray!) and one recurring thing I seem to see is AT teams hitting regularly at long range and achieving some unlikely kills.

Specifically they regularly take out AFV's with less than a 5% hit chance, probably on the 3rd shot or so at the most. I'm sure that I'm either being paranoid about their effectiveness or there is a valid reason why the low hit chance shown is irrelevant, but I'd welcome anyone's thoughts/ideas/lessons on this subject.

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"We're not here to take it - We're here to give it"

General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It"

[aka_tom_w]

I'm not sure about 'zooks piats and 'shrecks but other AFV main weapons have an increaseed chance to hit after a miss, and more increase aftera second miss.

Maybe that 5% you see is the unmodified chance to hit an unacquired target.

After the target is acquired and you fire a miss or two at it, them your third or forth shot chance to hit percentage should go up substanially.

Again I'm not sure about anti tank teams but the main weapons of tank and anti tank field guns, get better odds to hit after every miss.

Some please correct me if I'm wrong?

Anti tank crew experience makes a Big difference too. A crack or Elite unit will do a great deal better than a green or conscript unit. When it comes to anti tank teams experience level makes a HUGE difference, because a Tank KILL in this game is such a BIG deal. Expecially when you can KO one with a lucky 'Zook, Piat or 'Shreck fluke shot at long distance.

-tom w

[Col Deadmarsh]

I had a zook take out a um...well I'm still not sure what the hell it is cause I haven't ID't yet but I took out something from 169m out with my first shot, ground level. The zook team thinks it's a Tiger but hell, they all say that. I'm guessing it's probably a Mk IV or something else instead. Whatever the case, it's dead now.

On the other side, in another game, I had a schreck team firing at a Jackson from about 70-80 meters away from a multi and missed both times. Then, my infantry team missed with their faust shot from 40m away as the tank cruised up to the house.

The screck team are regs while I'm not sure about the zook team. Regs too I believe.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[Thermopylae]

I dunno...I always imagined the zooks and shrecks being pretty useless beyond 100m or so...but then againn it could just be my CC background.

[Nitsud42]

Being on the receiving end of the Col_Deadmarsh 169m zook team (it was a IVH, BTW) I about threw the monitor across the room! Not only was it 169 meters, it was in the rain and through some trees! Needless to say with the tank gone hsi M7 had no problem dispatching two of my HT's on the next turn!

On the other hand, I just had a "green" piat team miss a sitting still HT @ 103m 7 times in a row! (3 shots in one minute, 4 the next) he still has one round left, maybe he will hit next turn!

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Are you gonna pull them pistols? Or whistle Dixie? --- Josey Wales

[Jeff Heidman]

I think people are getting annoyed because it appears that the odds of hitting are rather arbitrary, resulting in the perception that the effectiveness of these weapons is based more upon luck than anything else.

Case in point:

In one game I had a zook team (Team A) hiding behind a wall. An enemy HT drives past them at a range of about 35m, i.e. the shortest distance between the zook team and the line the HT drove along was 35m. But the zook opened up at about 160m, and continued to fire as this HT calmly ambled by. All told the zook fired 8 rounds ranging from 160m down to 35m then back up to ~90m, at which point the zook ran out of ammo without securing a kill, or even a hit!

Same game, different zook team (Team put a shot into a Wirblewind from 190m on the first round.

So this is what makes people think that it is just dumb luck. How could the one do so much better than the other under worse circumstances?

But when you look at the circumstances in detail, it usually becomes apparent that there is more at work than just random chance (although that always plays an important role).

Team A was green. Their target was moving fast, and the team was pinned for the portion where the HT was at its closest, and the team was out of command.

Team B was veteran, under command of a competent (+1 combat) leader, firing at a stationary target, and under no suppression.

The point is that there are a lot more variables than just range and number of rounds fired. I would be willing to bet that in 9 out 10 "extraordinary" examples brought up, there are other unaccounted for variables that make the extraordinary not so amazing at all. This applies to almost everything in this game, not just LATW teams.

And for that last 1 out of 10, hey, that's why we play, right?

Jeff Heidman

[CaSCa]

What are people's experiences with Panzerfausts?

I 'd guess I've seen about 50 shot and only two have hit. Alot of these shots were under 25 meters. Of the two that hit one immobilized a Greyhound (later killed by germans playing 'grenade basketball' with the open turret as the hoop) and another killed a Sherman 76. Come to think of it, the second kill was so glorious (and helped secure my victory) that it was worth all the misses. Still I've seen them miss at ranges where they could have used the weapon as a club.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Nitsud 42 said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Being on the receiving end of the Col_Deadmarsh 169m zook team (it was a IVH, BTW) I about threw the monitor across the room! Not only was it 169 meters, it was in the rain and through some trees! Needless to say with the tank gone hsi M7 had no problem dispatching two of my HT's on the next turn!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, I'm glad I got rid of that thing. It could've proved very dangerous to all the infantry I had in the area, most of which were shaken from earlier fire. Damn regs have no balls.

Thermopylae said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I dunno...I always imagined the zooks and shrecks being pretty useless beyond 100m or so...but then againn it could just be my CC background.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Schrecks were deadly in CC2. If you got off a shot under 100m, you had at least a 75% chance of hitting. On the other hand, piats were terrible. They had a stronger punch than the zooks which made them more useful against Panthers and such but their aim was horrible.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[The Commissar]

Although shrecks seem very effective, Ive never killed a damn bloody thing with an American bazooka!

What would you guys recommend to be more effectice over all? A Piat team or a zook? It just came to my attention that I didnt get to use a Piat team yet, just zooks!

Maybe I should give it a...shot! SHOT! Ha-hahah...get it?

Aww, thats it, screw you guys Im going home!

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[ntg84]

I had a PIAT team knock out a Panther from 188m, side shot.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Don't call us. We'll call you.

[The Commissar]

LOL, Marshy, you...knock me out! HA! Get it? Get it? GET IT?

Dont tempt me, m8, there's more god-awful humour where that came from!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[ropey]

Here's an account from 'real life'. (NZ 24 Bn Official War History.)

"Manning a PIAT gun he [Pvt Allan Swann]fired four shots at the tank [a PzIV 'special - ie, long 75mm] at a few yards' range, damaging it to an extent that sent it backing away out of sight."

The same incident from a news report:

"Standing at the door, he saw a Mark IV coming in for a shot into the interior. with the tank at 10 yards, its gun slowly depressing for the shot which may have finished off the New Zealanders, he fired his PIAT from the hip [!]. The PIAT shell, fired almost between the tracks [ie, straight in front] hit at the junction of the turret and the body, jamming the gun. The Aucklander planted three more shots where they would do the most good. They did not penetrate, but the tank, obviously crippled, limped back out of range."

My point here is that PIATs in the game seem to be rather more effective than this one, even at 10 yards range!

On the other hand, Frost's battalion at the bridge managed to hold off armour quite well, and weren't they only armed with PIATs and grenades?

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Never leave your mind so open your brains fall out.

[Thermopylae]

Know what really kicked arse in CC2? fausts and mgs. allied armor ws doomed in that game

Meet a german infantyr squad: get kncoked out at 100m by a faust

Meet german armor: get kncoked out by a big gun which you cannot touch.

Meet german AT: get knocked out by a gun ou can't see

meet german shreck. get knocked out.

German tank meets allied anything: roll over it and kill it

[Seanachai]

At the risk of interjecting a 'Real World' but non-Grog note on all this, let us consider. LWATWs have to be about one of the flukiest weapons in this time period. Mass produced, cheap, training wildly variable within an army let alone between them, field conditions seriously affecting their use (how often do we consider a faust, zook, schreck, or piat round making their way between trees, through brush, etc.). These things were about as accurate as a thrown stone. That doesn't mean they never hit, or always hit. It means that their ability to hit was more often based on random factors than most weapons. Combat Mission attempts to model Real World conditions; neither FPS accuracy, nor Statistical Nazism. Play enough games, and you'll see Piats hit like champs at the edge of their range, and miss at ranges where most Board members could have hit the AFV with a two handed over the head throw with a piece of firewood.

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Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties,

Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices!

But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli,

All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother!

We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more,

We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

Great replies, thanks guys. I was chatting about this subject to my buddy during a TCP/IP game last night as we have both witnessed sucessful heroic long shots from AT teams. Then the following promptly happened -

I had immobilized his King Tiger in the centre of a small town after sacrificing half my armor to do so. I managed to sneak a 'zook team into the edge of the town (into the only building which seemingly wasn't crawling with defenders). They were over 100m away from the KT and were given a hit chance of 4% and a kill chance of none. I didn't even bother to order them to fire.

As I watched the replay they decided to open up and on the second round hit the side turret of the mighty beast and KO'd it. Even I felt a bit guilty over that one There we go, another fluke (?) added to the list.

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"We're not here to take it - We're here to give it"

General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It"

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

There we go, another fluke (?) added to the list.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, Combat Mission Urban Myth production in action

I think Seanachai and Jeff have it about right. These things are not surgical strike weapons, they are horribly inaccurate, but a thousand monkeys with a thousand zooks will eventually kill something at a long distance, and miss something other at a very short one. I killed a Panzer IV at 163m (1st shot) and a HT at 158m (2nd shot, different team) in the same game with green zooks. In another game, an elite zook team missed a Hetzer 6 times at 75m. But ask yourself how often that happens - these are the outliers and because they are outliers people remember them and talk about them. How much more often do they just do what they are supposed to do? The end of the story is that there is no point adding flukes. They are the endpoints of the bell curve, and they have to be there, otherwise something in the game would be wrong. Or do you think it was historically impossible to hit with a Zook at 169m or to miss with a PIAT at 10m? Because only if that was the case would there be a reason to gripe about it happening. It was not impossible, just very unlikely.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-09-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

Very interesting replies.....

I agree with Germanboy, when he says these things weren't "surgical strike weapons" and I think the game models the "fluke" nature of a hit or miss VERY well.

I am still very curious to know if there is a difference between a unacquired chance to hit % and an acquired chance to hit %?

I assnme that an Elite crew has a better chance to hit than green crew but I have not tested it?

Does any one know if a 'zook, piat or 'shreck team have a greater chance to hit after a first or second shot miss as the target may be "deemed" to be acquired, as they attempt to adjust for the margin with which they their missed shot(s) or are these weapons so inaccurate that you could conceivably steady the weapon and fire at the exact spot 5 times and some shots would miss and stray wildly and some shots would hit makeing retargeting and attempting to adjust for the missed shot a complete waste of time?

There are really fun weapons when they strike at long range and KO things like King Tigers .

Great Discussion

I'm completely unsure weather the game models there accuracy or chance to hit % realistically as I have NO idea of how accurate they were, or what the Real Life™ change to hit %'s actually were?

Can anyone comment on how close they think this aspect of the game models the reality of their use in WWII post D-Day anti tank combat?

As a personal comment I don't expect a great deal from them so I'm also pleasantly surprised if they do get a hit, and not really disappointed or surprised if they miss, I really like the wildly flukey way the odds seem to be coded, so that sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't and you can never really tell if you will be lucky or if you won't. I think its these kind of random elements that keep the game FUN !!

comments?

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-09-2000).]

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I killed a Panzer IV at 163m (1st shot) and a HT at 158m (2nd shot, different team) in the same game with green zooks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bah! Amateur.

See my post in:

Long range zook kills

I really do like the way Zooks/Schrecks/PIATs work in CM. Using a LATW can be either terminally frustrating or heroically rewarding. And sometimes both within the same minute.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 12-09-2000).]

[Blackhorse]

Using Public_Beta patch

Playing the excellent ASL scenario "Chenaux" against Wesreidau, my Schrecks cannot hit the broadside of a barn at 10 meters, much less anything over 50 meters.

Ah well, maybe my fausts will do him in...

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

Me gripe? About my favourite war game since Kampfgruppe? Never! Not trying to build a myth, just remarking on some things I've seen. For example I've just done another TCP/IP game and two 'shrecks fired a total of 7 rounds at 2 Shermans around 50m and every single one missed! Love it

[Dan Weaver]

Playing First Clash at Cambes against the AI, I took out the first PzIV with one PIAT shot from 90m that flew through the gap between two houses and nailed the tank in the side. It took me more than 20 PIAT rounds to knock out the last PzIV.

Just luck...