joeski Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 All the times I've played the AI I can never recall an AT gun brewing a sherm (front shot) with it's first shot! (Guess I haven't played enough) 2nd pbem and POP! 1st shot. And man did I get the rope-a-dope. PBEM oponnet: "Look at this little Puma doesn't it look tasty?" me: "Well I'll just hunt up this hill crest with my sherm and pop of a couple rounds." PBEM opponnet: "Please Do, I like it" Me: "Ok: popped the Puma, AT gun lights me up 1st shot & I was reversing. AAAAHHHH! Sorry just had to Vent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Would turn 5 been better for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 You've discovered a little-known WW2 tank-grog thing here that BTS, in its search for the ultimate in realism, has modeled in CM. I've been waiting to see if anybody else noticed this. Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. Thus, Shermans were rated officially at 4 minutes of survival in a combat situation, which is reflected accurately in CM by having them die on turn 4. After the Sherman had been in production for some time and combat experience had been gained, it was noticed in many cases, particularly for the earlier production runs of Shermans, that the official Mortality rating was a bit optimistic. Thus, the designation was changed to reflect the new data. This involved appending the letter A and another number to the M4 designation, the A standing for "Actually" and the new number being the revised Mortality rating. For example, the M4A2 had a combat-proven life expectancy of "Actually 2" minutes. Later on, the designation system got even more accurate by appending a number in parentheses and the letter W. Despite the widely held conviction that the parenthetical number was the caliber of the gun, what these symbols really meant was that the tank had a 75% or 76% chance of going WHOOSH in a big fireball when penetrated. However, some models of Sherman were so inflammable that calcualtions showed they had a 105% chance of brewing up, so they just left it at that and didn't bother with the W, because they were going to WHOOSH regardless. Towards the end of the war, some Shermans gained an E and another number in their designations. The E meant "Extra Cost" and the number was a designator for the manufacturer, to ensure that company got extra money for making the tank. CM accurately reflects this by making these types of Shermans cost more to buy in DYO. Thus, the M4A3E8(76)W designation meant a tank with an official Mortality of 4 minutes, Actually 3 minutes, cost Extra, and had a 76% chance of going WHOOSH. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 10-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 LOL Bullethead! ROTFLMAO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Very Very Funny Bullethead Big Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 This belongs in the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Bullethead - Bravo! Bravo! Encore! Encore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Bullethead- I Read the first paragraph, LOL. Read the second paragraph, ROTFL. Read the 3rd paragraph, laughed so hard I cried all over my keyboard and made my roomate think I was way too much into this game. Doesn't "W+" stand for Woosh Plus- "not only a woosh, but a Ronson. Lights on the first time, every time? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Doesn't "W+" stand for Woosh Plus- "not only a woosh, but a Ronson. Lights on the first time, every time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The W stood for WHOOSH, not "woosh". You'll never be a tank-grog making basic mistakes like that. As for the + symbol, this was an unofficial nomenclature developed by tank retrieval and repair personnel. As you know, vehicles that WHOOSH are totally destroyed so were just left to rust away. However, most Shermans had only a 75-76% chance of WHOOSHing (the difference being due to small variations in production techniques by the several manufacturers), so sometimes a few Shermans would simply be knocked out instead. When these were repaired and returned to service, the ordnance personnel annotated their log books with the + sign. The origin of this of symbol is still a matter of debate. Some claim it represents a white cross in a military cemetary. Others maintain that it's a pictograph for crossed bandaids over a wound. But one thing is clear--most US armored division personnel didn't believe in the independence of random events occurring at different times. They felt that if the tank had not WHOOSHED the first time, it certainly would next time. Hence, they made sure to mark such vehicles for assignment to replacement crews. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 I apologize for my ignorance on the meaning of woosh versus WHOOSH. Actually, I believe that the origin of the plus sign was a hobo symbol. Hobos in the '30s would chalk a cross on the gates of houses with owners who killed hobos. Sherm crews, being little better off than hobos, used the plus sign do denote tanks that would always get shot. What about gyrostabilizers? Weren't they used so that even when the tank was moving at full speed, the crews would always hit their target, ie a nice soft clump of bushes, when bailing out at full speed? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 109G said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Actually, I believe that the origin of the plus sign was a hobo symbol.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You just might make a tank-grog afterall Yes, I'd totally forgotten that theory. I'm kicking myself because this is one IMHO is closest to the truth. The others I cited strike me as the speculations of Baby Boomer historians personally unfamiliar with the cultural effects of the Depression. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about gyrostabilizers? Weren't they used so that even when the tank was moving at full speed, the crews would always hit their target, ie a nice soft clump of bushes, when bailing out at full speed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Quite correct. And smoke dischargers, of course, referred to the whole vehicle after it had WHOOSHed, this being the troops' way of making a virtue of necessity. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Fishermen have a similar system for cataloging skiffs. For example, every summer, I commercial fish in a Munson 20ft R8 skiff, propelled by a 48hp outboard. While most people would think that the skiff is 20 feet long, the eighth model Munson made with a roller bow (used for rolling the boat along the net), with a 48 horsepower outboard, it acutally goes like this: To find the intentions of the company, look for words that rhyme with the companie's name. In Munson's case, we get Ronson, the nickname for everyone's favorite tank. Therefore, the company wants it's skiffs to kill their crewmen, because they're cheaper to make that way. 20ft stands for Fish underfooT. In this case, the crewmen will always be standing on at least 20 fish. As a result, they will be slipping and sliding around while trying to pull in the nets, and the boss will get mad because they're squishing the fish, even though there's never anyplace else to stand. R8 is the Roll Factor. To get this, multiply the hight of the waves you're traveling in by the Roll Factor and divide by 100. In four foot waves, which are quite common even in the protected area where I was fishing, we find that the skiff has a roll factor of 32%. Therfore, it will probably roll over every third day it is used, giving the crewmen a great chance to catch hypothermia. 48hp is a measure of the Handling, Poor. 48 means that it will take 48 tries to get the skiff close enough to the net for the crewmen to lift the net up to the boat. Meanwhile, of course, the boss is getting madder and madder, and cursing at you more and more. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 109G said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Fishermen have a similar system for cataloging skiffs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Geez, why don't you get a different job, like working on one of the oil rigs out there? Fishing sounds equally dangerous but the oil gig pays better. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead: 109G said: Geez, why don't you get a different job, like working on one of the oil rigs out there? Fishing sounds equally dangerous but the oil gig pays better. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oil rigs don't hire college kids. Besides, the pay is good. I've decided to hire on as an M4 commander though, I figure it's safer. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 And smoke dischargers, of course, referred to the whole vehicle after it had WHOOSHed, this being the troops' way of making a virtue of necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeski Posted October 8, 2000 Author Share Posted October 8, 2000 Bullethead that's hillarous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 4th turn?!! 1st turn for me....mine all come with a big target painted on them... ------------------ unca pathy will show ya the path, if only he could find it himself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Bullethead, you should see if you can submit this to CM HQ's articles page. I forgot to mention that not only did sherm crews fill their tanks up with dry leaves and grass to double the amount of smoke produced when the tank WHOOSHed, they often tied extra branches on the outside of the tank in an effort to provide even more smoke to cover their comrades' retreat. Although many people think these were for camoflague, their actual purpose was more smoke. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Oil rigs don't hire college kids. Besides, the pay is good. I've decided to hire on as an M4 commander though, I figure it's safer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Especially since the most of the remaining M4s are parked as monuments or in museums and the greatest threat is death from boredom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Yeah, boredom sounds like a nice change of pace from fishing. Bullethead and I submitted an article based on the findings of this post to Madmatt for CM HQ. Lets hope he likes it. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamse Posted October 9, 2000 Share Posted October 9, 2000 I don't like to lose tanks at all ! IMHO losing tanks is a bug. BTS can you fix this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted October 9, 2000 Share Posted October 9, 2000 Bamse, just buy the Official CM guidebook at your local bookstore. It has all the cheat codes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 9, 2000 Share Posted October 9, 2000 Actually, there is a patch out for this. Just give your opponet nothing but Shermans, and the patch comes into place I don't like to lose tanks at all ! IMHO losing tanks is a bug. BTS can you fix this ? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 9, 2000 Share Posted October 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead: 109G said: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What about gyrostabilizers? Weren't they used so that even when the tank was moving at full speed, the crews would always hit their target, ie a nice soft clump of bushes, when bailing out at full speed? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quite correct. And smoke dischargers, of course, referred to the whole vehicle after it had WHOOSHed, this being the troops' way of making a virtue of necessity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Reluctant though I am to do so, I fear I must disagree with both you gentlemen based on the impressive documentation of Kadiddlehopper & Weenie in their book The Short and Unhappy Life of the Sherman Tank, Methadone Press, Swamp City, LA, 1989. In chapter 3, p. 792, they present irrefutable evidence that the sole purpose of the gyrostabilizer was to provide a stable platform for enemy tanks to shoot at. Precisely why that was thought to be advantageous for American tank crews is not explained, due to the fact that according to the minutes of the Armor Selection Board meeting in which this was decided, the discussion was adjurned when the participants broke into a food fight. See also the footnote to p. 13782 in the appendix. Respectfully, Michael Emrys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Michael emrys said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Kadiddlehopper & Weenie in their book The Short and Unhappy Life of the Sherman Tank, Methadone Press, Swamp City, LA, 1989. In chapter 3, p. 792, they present irrefutable evidence that the sole purpose of the gyrostabilizer was to provide a stable platform for enemy tanks to shoot at.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Kadiddlehopper & Weenie, of course, have a reputation for historical accuracy and unbiased reporting rivaled only by Pravda and CNN. The truth of the matter is as 109 Gustav states, as shown by the extensive series of stabilized crew bailing ballistics experiments carried out at Aberdeen Proving Ground in 1942, the results of which are contained in the records of said institution, now on file at the National Archives, reference NA-APG1942.15000024.02 s235. I encourage you in the future to base your opinions only on primary source material instead of the conjectures and conspiracy theories of authors with personal agendae. ------------------ -Bullethead Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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